The Alternative Acoustic Podcast
A deep dive into acoustic artistry, with the guitarists who play their own way. Hear the stories behind their innovative guitar playing and receive exclusive tips and tricks to enhance your playing and creativity.
The Alternative Acoustic Podcast
Episode 11 - Niwel Tsumbu - Congolese Guitar, Lego and Life
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In this episode Chris chats with Niwel Tsumbu https://niwel-tsumbu.com/ This podcast is brought to you by Ibanez UK.
In this episode, I chat with Noelle Tumbu. An inspirational guitar player whose playing and music I can only describe as vibrant and genuinely alive. And in this conversation, you'll get to hear some of that guitar playing, and I think you'll know what I mean. Here's a little taster. But also I think there's an absolutely fascinating deep dive into Congolese musical culture, into Noelle's personal journey with the guitar. It's a really emotional conversation, and I think it really brings guitar playing to life. And showing how our guitar playing, our personal sound and personal approach is really, I guess, a product of our own experiences.
SPEAKER_01She was playing with um Francesco Torisi on on the accordion. So I recorded with them on that album and which which which won a Grammy. And so ever since I've been performing in her band. Part of her band, yes.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic.
SPEAKER_01So we were now in in well, we have like just about one, you know, over a month tour which started in Boston. And um we're now today in yesterday we played in um North Carolina and today we're in Michigan. It's a day off. That's why I'm able to to do this. And uh and I'm just gonna keep going until the last show will be, which is kind of crazy to say for me, is is for um Carnegie Hall in New York. So it's like wow, yes, it's pretty big deal.
SPEAKER_02Are you loving it? Do you wake it do you wake up being like we want tour in America?
SPEAKER_01Oh yes, oh yeah, for sure. I mean I don't I don't take it for granted, you know. Um I know how hard it is, you know, in the music world for to be able to to go on tour, you know, and and play music, share music with people, and uh and to see people smile, people being happy, you know, to share all that joy and also at the same time uh make a living from that. You know, I know that it's uh most people, most musicians never get this this type of type of uh opportunity. So um I mean this is it I've been as I said, we've been doing this for nearly six years. I've been coming here a lot, but it never I wake up every day feeling like wow, you know, you know, this is just uh what I don't know uh an opportunity and a privilege to be at this position.
SPEAKER_02Um what's the stuff that you're playing with Rihanna? Because she she does the Silk Road thing, right? The sort of Yes for want of a better word, fusion, but uh you know, I can't just a mix of beautiful music. Is that is it that thing or is it her more sort of American folk thing? What's the yes?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I I I'm also part of Silk Road ensemble. Um so um with Silk Road, it's yeah, I you know, I don't, you know, I don't think I don't think you know people sometimes that word, the fusion word, people are afraid to say it's like music is always fusion. You know, all music in the world is fusion, you know.
SPEAKER_02But just when you say fusion, you think of like chickereer or like really clean jazz and like. I don't know, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's amazing how over time, you know, the words could change meaning. But really, all kinds of music, whether it's traditional Congolese music, whether it's rock and roll, classical music, it's there's some type of fusion. People always, you know, ideas come always come from somewhere else, and people take it and turn into their you know their own thing. Uh so in in Silk Road, it's really it's yes, it's where there's people of different cultures and different disciplines of music, you know, different and genres coming together. And they they they the goal, the idea is there to really just mix, you know, to really just show that fundamentally um music is just sound, you know. Whatever we do, what whatever we decide to call it, whatever we decide to call it rock and roll or you know um blues or African music, whatever we decide, at at the core of it it's just sound and everybody uses it with the instruments that they they happen to have in their part of the call in the you know where they live and and they put their personality on those instruments. And then, you know, thus they create the music that they do create. Uh so Silk Road is that, but but with also with her own band, it's yes, it's her her own songs, but still is you know, she approaches music with that sort of mindset, that's you know, that perspective of uh you know music is comes from from everywhere. And although the core of her music would be more sort of you know American, that's what I would say. Um she's doing the playing the banjo. Uh but it's very you also just wouldn't say it's American at the same time because there's there's a lot of different influence. So she's uh well I'd say it's very open-mind, uh very open-minded space to be making music with uh Rihanna and Giddens.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. Because I I saw um you had been working on banjo rapertoire as well. Um and I saw you writing about that uh identifying that mix of you said it sounded the the piece sounded like something like a Congolese folk thing, but it might have been written by an Irish guy in the 1800s or something, and is that that sort of like musical uh common sense kind of appearing in different places? Yeah, go on. Yeah, you you I'm murdering it. Go on, you go for it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's really amazing. You know, this my you know, my musical journey is, you know, um starting, you know, I'm from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, I grew up in Kinshasa, and uh as a musician, I became really, really interested in um in traditional music, you know, which is you know, at the time, you know, it would be quite unusual for you know, like most people who play traditional music, you know, like they're born into that tradition, like in Congo, for instance, like that. You know, I came from uh a family that you know that was I would say non-traditional, it's just like a normal family. Um not that we didn't like traditional music, but there was no traditional music around. But when I became a musician, I was really interested in traditional music of Congo.
SPEAKER_02And I really wanted to And is the sort of sorry, I was I was just gonna ask, is the Congolese traditional music when does the guitar sort of feature in that or is like what what's the instrumentation of that sort of traditionally?
SPEAKER_01Oh there's all kinds, there's all kinds of instruments and the guitar became involved like like you know the same all over all around the world in the in the 30s and 40s. Now the guitar is really part of most traditional band you'd find the guitar. But there's other instruments like Likembe, you know, which is known like the fan piano here. Um or um we've got also marimba, you know, a lot of different types of drums. Um, but yeah, the guitar is also, you know, in the last 50, 80 years or something or so, the guitar is really prominent. But I really wanted to know, you know, I always wanted to go back to find what was it before, you know. I was I had all these questions, like, you know, because what happened in the 1800s and 1700s, and you know, how was the music? But with Rhea, it's like I have seemed to found to find that answer with Rihanna Giddens because she's very involved with the uh you know American music and the the the history of of uh uh uh American history, which is all to tie together with American music and the with the the slavery coming from from from Africa. So I seem to have found that you know that the answer with Riadon Giddens because we just record um she we just recorded an album which she took all all the sort of early banjo tunes that came with with the slave of Africa uh into America. So some of these songs are crazy, it it's it's it's unbelievable because I'm like, wow. You listen to them some of these tunes today and that were written like in uh 1800 and 1700, they sound like they were composed by a Congolese musician today.
SPEAKER_00You know, I mean there was like da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
SPEAKER_01So, like when I heard that, y you know, it sounds so contemporary.
SPEAKER_02And uh that's an eighteen hundreds American banjo juice. Yes. And do we know who would have written that as well? Is that is is that an a white American or is that someone who's been taken from Africa?
SPEAKER_01Is it yeah, no lot of them are called like Negro Jig. I think that was called Negro Jig or something like that. Um, and there was actually one that's called, believe it or not, Congo Prince. You know, is a tune from um uh this was 1850. I don't I don't know if I can remember. Let me try. I mean I did even on in the recording. I actually I was like, I actually can't do this song because it's too familiar. I was yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? It's I was like, this is like you know, I grew up with this music around me all the time. You know, I I I actually thought this was more of a modern music of Africa because I always thought of um traditional music of Congo, let's say for instance, if I go from the the Luba tribe, could they use the guitar?
SPEAKER_00You find stuff like uh, you see it's this kind of sound and um it's kind of modal, you know.
SPEAKER_01The and it's your a lot of it is based on this kind of mixology and stuff.
SPEAKER_02There's like real like contrapuntal, like classical sort of sound and stuff as well.
SPEAKER_01Like that's yeah, I mean a lot of people are actually, you know, um I say to people a lot, you know, like music of Africa is contra there's a lot of counter uh contrapoints and uh and um you know polyrhythm. You know, it's there all the time. You see the difference I suppose with uh Africans, we don't really talk about harmony, you know, like people talk about it in the in the West. You know, in the West the harmony is like really that's what when you're learning music, that's what you you know, that's the first thing. But in uh in Africa, people are thinking about you know, people have to dance, you know, primarily that's it. If people are dancing, that that's about it. So but if you listen to a lot of African guitar at and have you heard of the the Baka tribe?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, maybe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean if you listen to those guys, they're people they live in the jungle, you know, they're you listen to that, it's like they have all this country motion that's been happening way, way, you know, for hundreds of years.
SPEAKER_02Um so no Niwo, to put put that into context, because I I think that's like a profoundly interesting point of that there's all that counterpoint and like if you like intellectually complex stuff, but the cultural difference is that people in the Congo aren't talking about it, whereas people in the conservatoires are constantly talking about it. Yes. So so what's the sort of like to bring to make sure it's like in a real modern context if you're if you're living quite uh a modern but also in a say an urban life and you're going to college and you're wanting to learn um yeah, more like Congolese traditional guitar, is is there now uh more of a sort of uh Western approach of let's break that harmony down and talk, or is it still very much do you think there's that difference still in a big way?
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's still the same, yes. It's really very much the same. It's there's no people don't think about harmony much. If you go to like bands rehearsing, they're focusing on just dancing, they do the songs very quickly.
SPEAKER_02You know. So when you learn, did you very much and you like an hour player? It's like I'll learn that tune, I'll play it. I'll I won't it won't sort of write down, talk about it, you know.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you still you're talking about personally.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, personally Well, and and and also culturally, because I think it's really interesting how people learn guitar, do you know what I mean? Especially nowadays, because it's so sort of intellectualized, isn't it? You know, it's really fascinating.
SPEAKER_01No, no, it's still really it's really it's so communal, you know, which is great, you know, in because it's really associated to how people react to what you're doing. So learning in Congo, people you would learn the song. The alb a new album comes out, you go out, you learn, you learn all the song, you learn all the parts. Because, you know, they whatever you do, you know, you could be very virtuous, you could do whatever you want, you know. Then people would be like, come on, come on, play a song. You know, the only bit of gratification you could get if you if you went play, like, you know, uh and somebody started dancing, then oh that's great. So the focus is always on learning the tune, and then yeah, and the harmony really most musicians to these days do not really learn much about harmony. I was different. I I had a um the difference with me, it was actually the opposite. Okay I had it completely the opposite because I was self-taught for the first year, and um I oh I never learned I was for some reason I don't know, it's just the way because I always think for me learning the guitar was like a way of um uh the universe you know all my ancestors for the type of brain that I had I didn't really have much future. I always if I when I look back now I didn't have much future in in Congo because I had a very curious mind. I wanted to learn new things, I I wasn't interested in different types of music even before I played. Um I was really interested in science, things like that. And there's no you know, there's no science laboratory in Kinshasa. You know, I would have probably just ended up, I don't know, a soldier or something like that, what went to war. Um but music really took me out of my path. You know, I was I would I never dreamed of becoming a musician, but as soon as I started playing, I just never stopped. I literally never stopped, and I would feel like you know, like life in Kinshasa was really harsh at the time in when I was growing up. The war just started in around 1997, 98. Um, you know, life was not easy, but as soon as I pick up the guitar, I just you know, it's like I traveled and I'm totally I've created a whole world of my own where life was perfect. Um so I did all that for like the first year. I was just like in, I was I was a solo guy, I always played high. Stuff like this, you know, and I never played down here. I was always like, you know, from the 12th red high, never um, but then after a year, I met a friend of mine, you know, I a friend of mine said to him, I would really I want to learn bigger things. That's what I said to him. I want to learn much bigger things, and uh because I could already play sort of Roomba music, you know, like traditional music, and then so he then knew because he was playing in a band already, and uh he knew a guitarist, he was like I met I know this guitarist is very good. So he took me to this guy, and now that was the I suppose you know a chance that I had to meet this guy because it was like um that was the best university that I've I've I've I've been in in my life. That's with him it was perfect because he was ten years, maybe twelve years older than me, and he was um he was an amazing Congolese roomba guitarist. You know, he was playing stuff like uh this was like a at the time it was um a famous song by a guy called Kofiolo Mide. So I saw him playing this, I was like, wow, you know, this is amazing. And but the the the the even the most amazing thing is he was learning jazz music so he was going to another uh guitarist called Jew in the morning. He was learning this jazz, and when he met me, he told me, Well, if you want to be a good musician, you need to learn about harmony, you need to learn about deep and taps of music, you know, and learn listen to all kinds of music and listen to things that you you don't understand. This was really that's what he said. Oh, sorry, my phone. Yeah, listen to things that you don't understand, and then so that was the best university because I became again that was like in in a parallel obsession with playing. I became obsessed with finding out new music. So I was like, I was the kid in Kinshasa, man. You know, when I think of this period, I'm like, God, you know, I was you know, I lived in a household where we had no food, we did not eat, you know, like I'm playing like those guitars that I'm playing, like they're they're made in, you know, using like bicycle cables, you know.
SPEAKER_02And uh Are you for real? Really, like Genuinely like using a bicycle cable.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, bicycle cables.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this is like rather than like a normal screen.
SPEAKER_01Where would you get that? This is like that would be expensive. And who's gonna buy that for you? We couldn't even afford food. Like, you know, we had this thing in uh, you know, in Kinshasa, this and we call it Article 15, which means find a way. You know, like you wake up in the morning, you look at your mom, you say, What are we gonna eat today? And she's like, Article 15 means find a way. So I grew up in this kind of house. But the with the only thing we had though in abundance was um my grandfather made coffee. So we always had had coffee. We drank coffee before going to bed when we got up in the morning, you know, that there was always coffee. And um, in fact, to these days I don't even I can't drink coffee because it just brings back a bad memory. Um but it's so it was like that. So I would walk miles around Kinshasa, miles to look for. If I heard anybody had a uh you know relatives in Europe, I'll just go knock in their house and introduce myself. I'm Neil. You know, I'm looking for any music. Do you have any music that's not from Congo? So I discovered a lot of music this way. And with that, so be my friendship with Chris Pen, which was the my mentor, even solidified because you know he was teaching me those tunes like um, you know, like jazz tunes, like you know, uh normal tunes like like Fly Me to the Moons, you know, like you know, those type of chords, you know, like G7. I had never played that before, and I was like, it was like, yeah, you need to play this chord, G7, and I hated chords, you know.
SPEAKER_02Because was most of the stuff that you were doing then was sort of riffer. And the riff guys and contra contrapunt or even, but just like two notes put together. No, yeah. Wow, how interesting. Yeah, I was told it that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01I was oh stuff like this, you know. So he told me to you put it. He told me those kind of chords, yeah. So he told me this kind of chords and then he learned he told me about the modes.
SPEAKER_02And how old are you at this point?
SPEAKER_01How old are you? At this point, oh I'm like 15, 16. 16, yes. Um so that was very, very different. My story is quite different for that. And also I wanted to learn with my fingers more. So I um I went I intro I I enrolled myself. There was there's a classical music school in in Kinshasa. So I but also that was that's a whole different story in its own because the reason I I enrolled to the school because I became so obsessed with playing, like nothing mattered, you know. Really, I was playing all day, all the time, and um I became even more sort of uh afraid actually. What happened? Something happened during the war, as I said. You know, a friend of mine that we we kind of started learning together. So he came to the house and he had the guitar. As I said, I didn't have a guitar. He was the first person who had a guitar that had not bicycle cable, he had like you know, standard uh Dadario cable. So I don't know if it was thatario, but you know, this this type of manufactured. So I remember he he he'd come and he had this, I was like, wow, my first time to play, you know, with these kind of strings. And so he'd bring his guitar and I would teach him some raves, so we play it at home. And uh so one day he comes to the house, you know, this, you know, while we're doing all this, there's like bombs outside, you know, there's guns. And uh so he he he was like, I have to go for food. I was like, but you know, why why don't you just stay, you know, let's play. He's like, no, I have to go for food. And then he goes out, literally five minutes, you know, my my um my nephew comes, no, my cousin comes running to me and said, Oh Serge, what's his name? Serge got shot, you know, and I couldn't believe it. You know, I woke, I went out and I would see Serge just lying there. There was this drunk soul, you know, it's this is just yeah, sorry. I never yeah, it's it's quite hard, you know. I just saw Serge there lying down and um so yeah, this this this story actually made me more um I kinda it kind of closed me more, like you know, that that period, like I would literally not come outside. And I I never and I never went to the to the funeral, like I couldn't, I couldn't, I could couldn't believe it. But worry also created you know, I became even more afraid to to go outside, you know, to play. Um so so I became very, very obsessed with playing again. That was like my as I say, music was it's something that came, took me off my path. It was like a refuge, yeah, it's like a shelter. It was like a shelter. It created a shelter that I can forget about all this that that was happening, and I played nonstop. Um so, but I at the same time I knew that I needed to study because my parents weren't happy. You know, they were giving out to me all the time, you need to study, you know. Um, so I was like, well, I can't even study. I couldn't even study. I was forcing myself to study. I would I would force to go to school, I would sit and try to focus, and I would just completely, my mind was not there. I would start singing all the songs, singing the melodies. I was really, I would get kicked out of the school, and the teacher would think, I'm doing this on purpose, you know, I'm just but it was actually I was completely not there. So because of that, I decided maybe if I enroll myself to in a music school, that's gonna help me focus better, you know, because I need to put this energy onto something. I can't just as at least at the time that's how I felt. I can't just not study, I have to study. So I went to the music school, but unfortunately unfortunately it was it was just it was again, it it was even worse because the music school, um the teacher, you know, just unfortunately with Congo, the political situation is no, you know, it's not stable. When that happens, you know, that means the rest of the country goes down with it. And so the school was very badly organized. There was not even a guitar teacher. Um there was um and then I was like, well, there's no guitar teacher, but but also what happened, a lot of stuff that they were teaching, I kind of knew of them, and I it was classical. I wanted to learn with my fingers, but I had a tape, as I said, you know, I was looking for a lot of music. I had a tape of Paco de Lucia and um and Brazilian guitarist um Baden Powell.
SPEAKER_02You know, so I was sort of uh but they were just teaching you Western classicals at this university, yeah.
SPEAKER_01They were teaching songs like you know, it was it was a and I'm there, you know, I'm already I went there thinking like they're gonna be teaching me like Paculusia. You know, so I'm I'm expecting stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02So And can I ask those were the with the lecturers and the teachers, were they um Congolese or African of any country, or were they so but they were still they were very much Western classical? Western classical?
SPEAKER_01They were Congolese, but very much Western classical. At the time I just wasn't ready for it. I was I wasn't ready for all that information, you know, like I loved uh classical music, I loved listening to it, but I don't think I was aware of like classical guitar. I was you know, I knew classical symphonic music, you know, like piano music, but um but it was just too western classical at the time. All I wanted was I suppose I wanted um excitement, you know. I was I was only young and I was a fast learner. That's that was another thing. I was a quick learner, so I would I would watch things literally, boom, and I would learn. And then so those kind of songs, I was like, ah man, that's so slow, you know. So I did I just you know, I wasn't I wasn't ready for it. I wasn't ready for it, you know.
SPEAKER_02And uh I just it just sounds basically it just sounds really weird in context to everything else that you played in the past one yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I was like uh exactly, you know. Um so that was it did not help, basically. The classical, you know, the the as I said, there was no guitar teacher, and uh I decided, okay, maybe I should learn an instrument that I don't know. So maybe I don't waste my time here. So I started learning the saxophone, but also there was no saxophone teacher, and also there was one saxophone that was broken, you know, it's just like you know, my daughter, you know, this is I'm just gonna go off this, but my you know, you know, I live in Ireland now, and um, and so my daughter and also she's learning she loves music, and um, so she was she's been learning the piano, and I I have an old piano that I you know I bought from a friend maybe 15 years ago, and she was playing, and you can hear the sound of the the notes, you know. So she does she doesn't like she was like, I don't I don't like this piano, yeah. I don't like I want a new piano, so I went and bought her a new piano, and I was so I was telling her this story, you know. I was like, I went to classical music school and the I I had to learn the saxophone with a broken sax. Like and when I was learning the guitar, I was learning the guitar with like bicycle cable guitar. It was so hard, and they had the the tension was so high, you know. I remember one day, actually, the first time I ever did D, you know the D D major, I could not play D. I just my fingers could not press the string. I remember my friend literally pressing my my my hand onto the D because the tension was so so high. I I couldn't so anyway man.
SPEAKER_02I I I'm I'm in I'm in awe of that. All that but all that stuff you just said, I'm really I don't want to sound um too sort of um well I want this to sound authentic because it is, but I'm really blown away by by that whole story and the story of your your friend and losing your friend. I mean all of that is just so powerful, but also all of those things are just so negative in the most like extreme way, like all those all those barriers, like yeah, guitar with bicycle, um yeah, brake cables, broken saxophone, the loss of a friend, the the even just the setting of war and being a young person. I mean it's just it's all just so traumatic. It's just uh it's it's like it's um it's almost unbelievable, do you know what I mean? To to have that in your your mind. I and so thank you for you know saying it. And uh do can I ask, do you think those do you think those essentially terrible things uh have produced a positive because if you know 16-year-old Newell had been handed um the most beautiful acoustic with um a set of you know fresh elixirs and and you stood outside of your door and your you know your friends were encouraging and playing in the street safely, and you know do you think maybe your playing would be different as a result, or maybe you wouldn't have committed so deeply to the instrument, for example? Sorry if that's a ridiculous question. No, no, it's hard.
SPEAKER_01It's a completely fair question. And yes, it's um it's made me who I am today. You know, uh like I wouldn't be who I am today if it wasn't, you know, for that my experience of life. Um it's made me resilient, you know, and uh as I say, I don't take it for granted. I really don't. I I know how hard it's been. I always say to people, if I had to leave, first of all, it it makes you see life in a very optimistic way. There's only one way of seeing life, as far as I'm concerned. It's it's a very optimistic way of seeing life. This because there's no other place of going, you know, when you're going through those situations, you know. Um man, I mean, you know, I'll come back. I walked to school for like an hour and a half, then walk back, and and it was as I say, there was like article 15, and we used to this uh there's a good story in this though. Like we used to uh we used to go, we me and my friend, when we started learning with my mentor, we had to go across a river and um we there used to be this vegetable called matinbele. Matinbele was like even the poorest of the poor would not eat it. It's like it's like terrible vegetable, nobody would eat it, but it grew it grows everywhere in Kinshasa. So but we used to go and pick it and we we collect it and boil it and then just put soil and eat it. That was pretty much our food with coffee for like years. Um but the thing about the matinbele story is if you go to Kinshasa today, it's like the the most expensive food, it's super food. It turns out Matembele is actually the super food of them all. Like we we were like way ahead of time.
SPEAKER_02Oh the hipsters, yeah.
SPEAKER_01They just they just they just found out like in the last couple of years, some you know, I don't know, doctors came, they were like, this is actually actually is you know grows in your land. It makes sense that you should eat this food because it's actually very good for you, you know, nutritionally. So uh so that's a pretty good story there. Um but yeah, that's my story of life. I mean, I I it really made me who I am today. This I don't take life for granted. I I always enjoy what I have, and you know, because you know, my my my journey, you know, it's made me a stronger person. I mean, anything that comes on my way, you know, there's a way we always we can all always find a way to solve something, you know.
SPEAKER_02And how how about your um because that's something that's come up in a lot of these conversations with all different guitarists of different styles um and from different places? There's this interesting journey of like the amount of time that we commit to playing and this sort of teenage, maybe teenage peak of um like of like obsession, which sounds you know, well your your description of being sort of six just nothing else matters, all you're gonna do is play. Do you are you are you still that guy or now what you you said you have a daughter, like having for for me, like having kids sort of change that amount of time, but made me more grateful for the time I had, and that you know what how much do you play out of interest all the time just constantly.
SPEAKER_01I'm that guy. I mean, obviously I have a family now, you know. Um, so you know, I still have to do you know that stuff. But I play all the time. You know, I I I think at this stage, you know, even when I'm like it's safe to say even when I'm not playing, I'm playing, you know. I'm thinking of thinking of guitar all the time. I see you know the world through the lens of guitar for sure.
SPEAKER_02Um super visual, sort of seeing the fretboards, sort of do you rehearse while you cook cook dinner for your family, sort of thing? I was talking about that with Alan Gogel, who's a fantastic player. You might know that that sort of it's a ri it's a really efficient practice time, that sort of when you're doing other tasks. Do you find that?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I'm a very, very visual. I you know, I I work with shapes a lot. Um yeah, in fact, that's how I I remember things. You know, I don't actually when I play it's all about placing kind of like Tetris, you know. Uh or le Lego. I actually will have um my way of um you know, because the way I play my counterpoint, the way I learn play counterpoint is very I actually worked it out um from Lego. Um because you worked it out from Lego, yes, literally from Lego. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_02Okay, it's just I'm just coming back for clarification because Lego's never been brought up in this podcast so far, so that's yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's amazing. Go on. Well, it's um you know I always you know wanted to play counterpoint, but you know, counterpoint is is hard on the guitar, you know, comparing to the you know to like keyboard and piano. So um I the only way I could play if I learned a counterpoint sort of melody or something, but I wanted to be able to improvise counterpointly, you know, and that was really hard. So um the way I worked it out was first of all, I always play with a lot with uh intervals, you know, better whether it's like third or sixth or like tenth. So I always I'm I was always used to that. But to be able to play, to use I knew that using intervals I could able to to access counterpoint. I just did not have sort of the the the know-how and the technique, the the sort of way of doing it that was I was able to do it while I'm improvising. So one day while playing with my son, we're playing Lego, you know, it was Lego Star Wars. Um I just figured it out because we were playing off. I was like, of course, if you follow the same principle of the Lego, you can actually access the counterpoint. I've worked it out in my head. I we were just playing Lego. So what that was is you know the way the Lego has like tiles that attach. So they would have some of them have two tiles, some have three tiles, some have four, five, and so on. So at that moment I I looked and I was like, of course. They're taking tiles that have different sort of you know, um different number tiles, putting them together to create a shape. If I think of tiles as intervals, let's say the tile that has three, so the lego that has three tiles is a third, which is and then if I mixed the the the tile so the lego that has three tiles, mix it with the lego that has six tiles, I would immediately get a country motion without thinking about it. So if I went from third and then mixed it, instead of playing the same third, I play with a six, I get this sound, so it become see you're getting this kind of sound, and then I was like, Oh wow, that's amazing! This is all I'm doing in my head, you know, while we're playing. And I was like, oh, so that means I worked it out. If I go from third, start adding two. So if I go third, and if I add two, it'll be fifth. And if I add two, it's gonna be seven. You know, two nine, eleven, thirteen, fifteen, you know, to seventeen, and I get a full scale. So you become you hear that? So that was I literally walked out while playing the Lego, thinking about okay, oh, if I just place all these different, you know, it's just I suppose it's the Lego playing the Lego sort of unlocked my brain to think that way, you know, and then from then on I was like, my tuning is a bit off. I can just keep going, you know, basically. Or for me in my mind, I'm just I'm not even hearing those melodies. I'm just placing, you know, the the Lego and it create is creating this melody. So that those melodies, I'm not actually hearing these melodies when I'm playing, I'm placing just the shapes, and it's just sort of happening.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's happening. Almost, so you're just placing them and they just unfold.
SPEAKER_01They're just unfolding. So in a way, it's actually very cool because it's really even for me, it's unpredictable. Like I'm playing with the sound that's just coming out of me. If I play, let's say, as I say, you know, so yeah, so that you know, that really allowed me to uh you know to be more free, and especially for it, like if I was playing, like I played it, I play a lot with a percussionist, and so that really helped me a lot, you know, especially if just playing the two of us with no bass. You know, I can and I can fill the space with all the notes, and it's it's it's you know, it sounds like there's two guitars, you know. You know, I can do it in all kinds of you know it's it's a it's a very, very different sound. Even for myself, it's like I'm I'm ex I'm experimenting with the sound that I'm hearing. You know, it's very different. I think it's go on.
SPEAKER_02No, sorry, man. I was just gonna say it's it's very interesting as well because it by the sounds of things, that's a self-discovered uh approach, and it's coming, you're not intending to do something necessarily, it's just unfolding because you're using this system, but also what ends up sounding is like really Western classical. I know it's got this sort of but then it's got this staccato-y, um, yeah, sort of West African bounce and flavor, it's fascinating. Is there much classical Western classical stuff that you ever did, or is that literally just coming from that discovery of this visual?
SPEAKER_01It's purely, but I have to say, you know, it's something I was I was searching, you know, like as I say, it was it was a is it was a quest at that time. I you know, I've been searching for like a number of years how to be able to improvise like that. So I've I've looked at people, you know, but it was never the only way you could learn country motion on the guitar was people would say go learn baroque music. You know, people would say learn bark inversions or you know, it was like you learn a piece of music that which I that's not I knew that that's not the direction I was I wanted to go. I wanted to be able to improvise using country motion. So and also I was aware and I knew already the harmony. I was I has I had pretty good understanding of harmony. So the way I'm using it, you know, it's um yeah, it's it sounds like classical music for to a lot of people, you know. When people say people think like I I went and studied Bach's inverse and stuff like that. No, I did it's purely from I'm literally, as I say, I'm not you know you know it's just I'm literally not hearing this melody. I'm just placing the the shapes, the Lego, you know, just Tetris. Yeah, that's really that.
SPEAKER_02And it the end the analogy analogy, the analogy just keeps going, man, doesn't it? Because it's that sort of like your son was doing. You're just you're playing, you're just playing, you're building stuff, and then you sit back and you're like, Wow, exactly. Or no, I'll knock that down and do it again. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01And in it's very good for like composing, you know, really interesting stuff without trying. You know, sometimes when when you sit down, want to compose a piece of music, it you know, you you sometimes end up doing too much, putting too much. But in this way, I find that a lot of my pieces of music after this I've composed came from literally just playing. I would just record it and it comes out perfect. I don't have to go learn it, you know, spend the whole all the time like um a good song, you know, it was purely it's one of my pieces of music, but I always remember one how I wrote it. I would literally just sat down and played that. It was completely an improvisation, but it came out like this two-part, and I don't have to go, you know, relearn it. And you know, because sometimes it could be hard, you you sit down and learn it, write a piece of music where you have to spend time to also learn how to to to play it, you know, and which kind of takes time. But this way I find like a lot of my piece of music now. I I don't actually have to spend a lot of time because I'm just placing shapes here and there, and then and sometimes I don't even remember the melody. I just have to access the shape in my brain, and then it'll come. You know.
SPEAKER_02That's fantastic. That's a perfect place to start. Perfect, honestly. That's that's really really beautiful advice and insight. So thank you so much, man. I'm really grateful to you. Pleasure is mine.