The Alternative Acoustic Podcast
A deep dive into acoustic artistry, with the guitarists who play their own way. Hear the stories behind their innovative guitar playing and receive exclusive tips and tricks to enhance your playing and creativity.
The Alternative Acoustic Podcast
Episode 13 - Gwenifer Raymond - American Primitive, Punk, John Fahey
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In this episode Chris chats with Acoustic Guitar Gwenifer Raymond https://www.gweniferraymond.com/ This podcast is brought to you by Ibanez UK.
In this episode, I chat with acoustic guitarist Guenifer Raymond. Now, the music that Guenifer creates is really inspiring and quite frankly very unique and original. Now there's two seemingly opposing genres that come up in this conversation a lot that I think give an insight into the fantastically vibrant sounds that Guenifer creates. Those two genres are American Primitive and Punk. Now I reckon most people know what punk is, maybe understand a little bit of the philosophy behind it, know some of the music, but American Primitive is a different one. There's one particular artist that usually gets mentioned, and we certainly mention a lot here, who's John Faye. And if you haven't heard American Primitive music after this episode, you're definitely going to want to dive into it. I hope you enjoyed this dude. Have you just been in America as well?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I just came back um Monday. Yeah. I'm going back uh in a week. A week uh yeah, but just over a week.
SPEAKER_03Okay. That's insanely exciting. Is that is that kind of like super cool to you or is that like a thing that it's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01I've been it's not my it's not my first rodeo there anymore. Really? How many times do you still it's still always fun? Uh I don't know, five, six. Really, right?
SPEAKER_03Oh no, that's kind of like, yeah, that's the that's the norm for you then, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, it's getting there.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Is there quite an American because well, the American primitive thing, obviously, is that actually do you think there's quite a market in America for it in that sense or yeah, I mean I think so.
SPEAKER_01I mean it's this kind of the obvious the obvious uh connection to to Americana within there. Um yeah, I mean I think it's sort of a natural, and then you know it's just a it's just a lot of there's a lot of people in America, right? So there's a lot of people to to to to to play to. Um yeah, I mean I think it's kind of basically you the the Americana interest replaces what would be more the folk interest in the UK. So it's slightly different. Kind of, you know, I don't know, in m not say markets is a horrible word, but like that's kind of the two the two guess. That's the equivalent, I would say, in America to what your kind of audience is in the in the UK, as well as all the avant the avant-garde sort of crowd, which is kind of the same crowd.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, interesting, because uh like the folk thing in the UK as well, like folk clubs and folk nights, there's this real sort of span of how they work as well, isn't there, and how sort of folk it is, as in English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish folk, or whether it's just acoustic music and sort of more progressive and let m Americaner in and stuff. Do you say is it a little bit more um is it quite open-minded over there in that sort of scene within Americana and and folk if you like?
SPEAKER_01Or yeah, I kind of think so. I mean my my I'm kind of sort of I guess in a way in a way I'm sort of lucky musically genre-wise, is that I tend to I don't I don't really fit in any specific genre, which means I can kind of justify playing almost any almost any festival, which is quite nice. Um so yeah, I mean it's all I think it's all pretty I've only ever once been told off by uh by an old deer at a folk festival for not like introducing the songs and all that stuff. Usually it's pretty calm.
SPEAKER_03Why I really dig your music, I think partly is the sort of John Faye American primitive thing. But I when what I was when I was sort of constructing what I was gonna maybe talk about a little bit with you, even though I'm fabulously disorganized and don't have like a long list of questions or anything like that. But when I was thinking about what to sort of say to you, I was uh gonna try and communicate like why I really love the sort of dynamic spectrum of what you do. There's this you know beautiful, delicate, um quiet thing down at one end, and then at the other end it's it's just brutal, it's more like brutal than and far more brutal than um John Faye and all that. You're just like yeah, really sort of punishing the instrument almost.
SPEAKER_01It is definitely a love-hate relationship.
SPEAKER_03But that then I I read your uh because I thought like I should be slightly professional and actually read your biogue rather than just sort of from what I'd seen. And I read the whole sort of punk thing. Is that is there like can we talk sort of philosophy of that? Because there's this I I kind of exist in this world of trying to make in my uh dynamic spectrum, it's like I want my quiet to be yeah, beautiful and sparkly, but I want my loud to be as loud as I can go without the guitar sort of grunting or buzzing or anything like that. Whereas in my head, maybe there's like more of a punk thing of just like it being a visceral expansive sound. I'll shut up. You talk.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's good. No, yeah. I mean, I think I certainly think viscerality is certainly a thing from like a sonic perspective. I was always I was always more interested in kind of like the n almost almost like noisy, you know, the noisy side of things. So even within punk, I was never I was never really an oy-oy punk, I was more kind of interested in uh you know sort of slightly left field um punk.
SPEAKER_03Like textures and like sensations rather than like words and exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And just that sonic quality of something being kind of out of control. I mean, I like as you know, I I like uh sometimes the guitar to yeah, knock and buzz. And for me, that's kind of I guess that's kind of the equivalent of like, I don't know, if you're an electric guitar player, you're doing uh feedback or something like that. It's kind of I think it's like an emotionally an equivalent uh sort of sort of thing in the that you're producing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like screaming or crying or voice breaking or it's just like Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's a you know a good it's just nice to explore all the things that you know you can do. Because it's they they you know they have different they evoke different uh things in the in the piece and in the user and all that. And the user, the piece and the user, in the in the piece of music and the listener.
SPEAKER_03The the user of your music, I like that. That's like Yes, the user, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um that's my computer programming background coming out.
SPEAKER_03Really? Wow. Okay, that's really fascinating. Um okay. So well may maybe we could focus in on that sort of, and you mentioned in um programming as well, because I I kind of think of yeah, that like some of these musical elements of as like parameters, I suppose, of control, and it just seems to me that like you've got um a more expansive um sort of yeah, dynamic range than most, which I think makes it can you do you mind um and not to put you on the spot, but can you sort of play a little and show people that that sort of I don't yeah, I was just making some shit up.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03Amazing, amazing, instant, instant sort of power. Um what and what like tune-ins are you dabbling in, Gwen?
SPEAKER_01What's the sort of uh well that's that's in D minor right now, but I use a lot of C minor and uh some G minor, mostly minor keys. Um occasionally I'll go into a major, but you know, not very often.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Mostly, yeah, the miners.
SPEAKER_03And is that in uh do you just when you're writing and stuff, do you do you think do you think theory and stuff like that? Or do you just tell me No, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I have I have no theory. I I can't even read me using that. Okay, fantastic.
SPEAKER_03Well let's talk about that then. So how how do you um yeah, how do you how do you create them?
SPEAKER_01I just played the guitar and it sort of comes out really. Podcast over. Good.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean you're kind of writing things with a sort of sense of um uh I guess writing things with a sense of like narrative, right? Rather than being like the theory of um, oh, this is in a modal mood. Let me, I don't know, I don't know that shit. But you know, terms of like um oh, let's bring it down so he can come and then we bring it back up, and then he needs to kind of you know do something that sort of reflects what we did earlier in the it's kind of like it's like it's like you know, it's like a movie in a way, right? Where you only you have sort of Chekhov's guitar riff and and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_03Do you do you think you're articulating that in your head, or are you articulating that because you cause you're sort of being forced to explain the process, do you think? Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Half and half. I think I've sort of I think so probably earlier in in my sort of c composition, I probably wasn't thinking about that, but now I'm a little bit like yeah, there's a sort of sense of this I need you know if I'm writing a piece of code, I can something I am thinking, oh this needs to do something different now, right? In order to change the I don't know, to yeah, to maintain the interest, right, of of of of what it is. It is it is like stuff it is like story, it is yeah, it is like story, right? And there are sort of arcs to it. I think that's that is a semi-conscious thing.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Yeah, because I mean you're going back to the the the angry old deer that you said kicked off at you for not sort of introducing the narrative of the tale of you know something gory happening. Like that uh do might do most of your compositions actually have that within them then?
SPEAKER_01There is actually like no No, they're more um abstract than that. There's not really a s I mean every you know once in a while it will be kind of a story, although it sort of tends to find its own way, even if you start off with all the good intention of actually pursuing like a particular narrative. A lot of the time it's more yeah, it's a kind of a more abstract thing, but you have the sense of you know where the story wants to go, even though there isn't a narrative to it, like it's it's a story of of of of notes, I guess. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Hmm. I think loads of people who listen to this probably well, I I think lots of people probably create their own music, but I know a lot are just sort of dabbling with that and maybe lack confidence in it, and I think so often like music theory is at the forefront of it because it's like a way of explain it's it's kind of almost it's almost like an easy way of explaining how you've created something, even though it's obviously vastly complicated, and but I can can we try and explain how you create stuff without without the theory because I I I feel like that's like the it's like the golden ticket, because that that's what mo I think that's actually what most people want, because the most you know we can explain modes and scales, but it's so much harder to articulate how you create like the you know something that maybe doesn't even have a story, and you you said you just play guitar, and I get that, but yeah, unfortunately that's kind of how it works, you sit and play a lot of guitar and kind of you kind of solve it.
SPEAKER_01It's almost like a jigsaw puzzle sometimes where you've got you've kind of got cool little pieces that you feel like they they sh they can go into one another, but sometimes trying to assemble it, it's like it's like problem solving, and that really is just playing the guitar until you accidentally figure out oh this can do this, and that's cool. Uh but beyond that, it's just I guess I don't know, it I guess there's vibes. You kind of get that insight. And if you think you've played guitar for a long time, you do get that instinct of, hey, you know, this is this wants to do this. And for me, I mean, you you've sort of picked up, I've always picked up pieces of of or yeah, pieces of theory, or rather discover them accidentally and don't know what they are. But you know, I know I always used to call it I used to do it in my old punk band days as well. I would always call it oh, I like to play the wrong note, which it makes it makes it takes it, makes it sound kind of off kilter. And I'm sure there's theory for that, right? It's definitely I think it's just called playing like a jazzy chord. Yeah, yeah. But for me, it's like all of that stuff is um I guess half half discovered. You've just got your bag of your sort of bag of tricks, really. And if you're playing guitar to discover a song, you kind of find more tricks as you go in it as as well. It's not very useful, is it?
SPEAKER_03No, it it is. It is. I I think your jigsaw analogy is pretty cool because it's a jigsaw as well, is something that you you just play, right? You just you don't sort of if someone said, How are you doing that jigsaw? You wouldn't be like, Well, I've because there's so many infinite numbers of shapes that click together, you just sort of you just do it, don't you? You just experiment and try.
SPEAKER_01Well, do the outside first. So that again, unless you're at do the outside first, unless you're at social media.
SPEAKER_03I I wonder if i I reckon people listening to that will, if they're like at the beginning of composing, creating, making stuff, they'll probably think that that takes confidence. Because you're saying like you're deliberately I don't know, maybe there's a like a punk vibe to that as well, because you're saying you I think you said like you deliberately put in the wrong note.
SPEAKER_01But it sounds good, right? It's more that like you know when you when you when you're playing in punk bands, you have a kind of basic idea of sort of major, you know, your major you know what I mean, but then if you're you know, if you that's sucks, right?
SPEAKER_00But you can go it's it's that's different, right?
SPEAKER_01It's more I guess that's in those sort of little tricks, and and when you and it's also like it lets you kind of uh purposefully leave things in a unpleasantly resolved way, or at least a a unsat not unsatisfied. Yeah. You know, it's just this kind of more more more fun, I guess. And it's I guess it but depends what you're trying to write. If you're trying to write a beautiful kind of bucolic tune, which is you know, nothing wrong with that necessarily. Bucolic.
SPEAKER_03Um that's that's an awesome word, that is. Thank you. I'll put that in my pocket and use it. You yeah, okay. Yeah, the the you mean the sort of like sparkly and loveliness, nice.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's fine. But if you want to kind of uh if you want if you're trying to uh attempting to write something that's somewhat more more of a seedy underbelly, then you need a sort of a seedy underbelly note, you know.
SPEAKER_03Okay, fantastic. Um yeah, I like that. There was there were just so many lovely descriptions. Umpleasantly resolved or seedy underbelly, they're all just like wonderful musical descriptions of things. Because do you I I sometimes find like I I really like those more I I describe them as like colourful sounds, they're more sort of flavoursome to my I don't know, brain or whatever. But I think I often wonder whether sometimes to listeners that sort of colour um always sounds dark uh because it's like because it's unknown, because it's not like as predictable and that sort of like like if you've ever like listened to really far out sort of avant-garde stuff, even though it's not necessarily trying to be like the soundtrack of a horror movie, it kind of comes across in that way because it's not just a sort of if you don't have any theory, you sort of figure them out for yourself, and that can be it can be make life harder, but also it can I think it can kind of unlock uh unlock kind of relying on theory as like a crutch.
SPEAKER_01You just sort of you're not you know you it's really easy to break the rules when you didn't know when you don't know the rules, right?
SPEAKER_03You're not gonna always go to the predictable choice, you're gonna find something new.
SPEAKER_01It's just what that feels what sounds cool to me, basically. And I've got a really bad attention span, so uh I need to keep myself entertained as much as anything else.
SPEAKER_03Fantastic. No, that's a similar but for me, I I got trapped with theory in a sort of cracking the code and thinking I'd like cracked the Da Vinci code and then that became like a complete and utter cage, and then I started tuning my guitar differently so that when I played DCG, it wasn't DCG and it sounded awful, and then discovered new stuff. But then I found jamming with musicians like a bit of a nightmare because for the first ten minutes I'd sound utterly shit as I tried to work out what's going on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you have experience there.
SPEAKER_03But you yeah, it it become it comes up it for you find new things more readily, don't you? I suppose.
SPEAKER_01I think so. Yeah, yeah. And it's yeah, and like just doing things as you said, like changing the tuning, um, can really unlock a lot of stuff. Especially as I mean, we if you play in open tunings, you know, uh there is this effect where you'll get sympathetic resonance of the unfretted strings, which means that even if you're playing identical notes, but in a guitar that's tuned differently, it sounds different because you've got all the other notes ringing differently in the in in the resonance, which is interesting. Like if for example, if you're playing, I always noticed that if you're playing a major if you're just playing a major riff in a in a guitar that's tuned to a minor key and you're leaving the minor note open, you can kind of hear it and it adds that adds a lot of that's quite that's particularly uncomfortable actually, of like hearing this sort of murky, like uh minor hum underneath quite subtly underneath like a happy little riff. It's uh it's quite a cool effect.
SPEAKER_03Nice. Nice. You can't show us that, can you?
SPEAKER_01Um I not pick it up on this microphone, but we can see it's like yeah. I'm sort of doing it a bit harder there, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03Nice, nice. Just yeah, so just interesting, well, I don't know, interesting, such a bland word, isn't it? But yeah, interesting textures that you're creating there. Erocket.
SPEAKER_01What was the word that you used earlier? I got it. Oh, b picolic. It just means like it's like pastoral, isn't it? It's like picolic, green fields and pretty cows and the field.
SPEAKER_03Fantastic. Amazing. I'm gonna I've I've yeah, I'll I'll ask you to tell me that again because um I can remember it. That's why I have such a bad vocabulary. Um maybe it'd be nice to know how you were sort of arrived at the solo guitar thing. Do you know what I mean? Like what sort of yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, so yeah, I was a guitar player and played in punk bands, you know, mm for most, you know, for a long time, many years. Uh and then kind of by way of very um very those very cheap CDs you could get in H and V that were blues roots of blah, and they would just shove anyone, doesn't it? Didn't really matter. Some popular artist, and it was and they would choose a selection of tracks. And they were really great. You had to, you know, they were great blues compilations. Um, and you know, you get stuff like Mississippi John Hurt, Blind Boy Fuller, guys like that. Um really great alternating thumb pickers. And as a guitar player, um hearing that, I actually assumed originally, especially John Hurt was kind of the first p person I I learned to play. When I first heard John Hurt, I thought it was two guitar players playing together. So that you know, when you discover, oh, there's this one guy, you know, you immediately you want to learn to play in that style because it's it's super cool. Um so I so I did. Um but then you know I I guess I had a big big old book and it included some tunes in uh in open in open in open tunings. So I you know discovered open tunings, kind of got into that scene. Uh but I'm pretty bad at learning other people's songs wholesale. I've I've just got no attention span for it, and and I can I won't remember it. So I always end up lit learning little bits and then just sort of writing my own pieces because I can I can remember my own pieces. Uh and you know, I'm not a singer, uh so I found I was writing slightly more uh I guess I guess intricate pieces of music because it's not you know it doesn't have to go into vocals, right? It's kind of its own thing. Um so I was writing yeah, instrumental finger-picking blues pieces, um, completely unaware of the existence of like John Faye until someone played me John Faye. I was like, oh, this is like a this is like a whole thing. Uh and it kind of I guess it gave that maybe gave me the idea that uh uh someone other than me might be interested in this weird music that I was writing. So I just started playing. I started like opening, I was in some folk band. And I started opening Big Being the opening act, just playing instrumental guitar music, and just kind of went on, went from there, really.
SPEAKER_03Fantastic. Yeah, I think so many people aren't actually aware of the whole John Faye and yeah, American primitive kind of genre as a whole, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01It's kind of Yeah, it's surprising. Even people who you know they like it's interesting. People like it and they've never heard of they've never heard of John Faye.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01There's a biography, isn't there? It's not really an autobiography. There's his book. Well, he has a couple of books, but there's that one that's how Bluegrass Music Destroyed My Life, which is his which is Stories by John Faye. Uh which is they're sort of autobiographical, but they're they're also probably 50% made up. Um it's really interesting. Um well maybe maybe not, who knows? This I think it's quite a contentious issue as to how much of that book is is real or fair. I think it's I think it's uh uh I think it's interesting that he's he titles it himself Stories by John Faye. Okay. Um but yes, there's the um there's the uh Dance of Death biography of him as well.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So it was he quite uh because I don't really know loads about him by any means. I just enjoy his music. And actually, the way the my route into it was doing uh I was writing a guitar tuition book and was trying to sort of show a the range of finger style basically, and I was like, oh yeah, that guy, John Faye, I'd heard of him and then looked, and I quite I kind of fell in love with it, and sadly through like Spotify playlists and stuff, just that sort of you know, that sort of getting a real everyone's got a role. Yeah, yeah. So I don't really know much about him. So but it was he quite a storyteller then, in that sense, to to write a book of stories, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean it's almost it's like almost an autobiography, but not really. It's like a fiction, it's like a fictionalized autobiography of himself. But yeah, he's he's a wild writer. He's he's a pretty good writer. Um he's a sort of a wild character. His his writing's kind of like his his his guitar playing in a way, it's very um idiosyncratic. Um it's worth a read. I mean, you know, he's not he's he's a super fascinating character, you know, not necessarily a very a very nice guy.
SPEAKER_03Really? Okay.
SPEAKER_01Uh but you know, he I don't know, he was like a lifelong contrarian and had some pretty bad attitudes uh towards women.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_01And was kind uh kind of pretty especially I think he maybe reconcile reconciled a little bit early on. He was such he was like an if you if he'd have been around today, right? He'd have been an internet edge lord, right? He used to like used to literally say racial slurs on stage to try and get a rise out of his like like his kind of cool, hippie lefty audience.
SPEAKER_02Right, okay.
SPEAKER_01Um but also you know, he was like great mates with Buck Awite. Uh and yeah, he's just he is he is he's one of those guys. He's one of those characters from like the mid-20th century that we don't really we don't really have anymore, um, who are problematic, but you also still kind of like them. But this is they're just complicated, you know. There's a lot going on.
SPEAKER_03Was he kind of like a John Martin sort of bit of a mess, but creating beautiful humans?
SPEAKER_01Oh huge mess, yeah, absolutely. You know, alcoholic, uh pretty overweight at the end of his life. I mean, he died having a quadruple bypass. Um yeah, yeah. He was I think he was the one point he was living in like the uh YMCA because he didn't have any money. Wow. It's worth reading about John Faye. It is quite he is an interesting character from a yeah, certain period I feel like we don't have any more of like musical history.
SPEAKER_03Because what when was the um sorry I'm setting you up now as the authority on American primitive, so I'm gonna just throw questions and do know something about it. Uh because when was that style sort of you know popular and more slightly more mainstream, if you like, uh or was it was it not?
SPEAKER_01Well, it's gone through phases, right? So he was kind of he was like in the 60s, the mid sort of mid to late 60s, and then kind of up to through the 70s in the sort of height of his popularity. Um he was pretty big, you know, uh for a time. Um and but the what happened was I mean, there were kind of other figures. You get it, you kind of get Leo Cock, who was his protege, and like guys like we got Robbie Basho and that. But um most of the other guitar players in the genre did tend towards that I'm just gonna bring back this word, that kind of bucolic, pretty playing. Okay. Um it kind of got adopted a lot into the kind of transcendental meditation-y, hippie-ish movements.
SPEAKER_03Into the Michael Hedges kind of vibes, then over the other side, like big reverbs and yeah, I guess so, or just yeah, just kind of hippie, hippie music, really.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but in a in in the sort of in the more you know, I've got 17 different types of crystals kind of way, um which Faye hated. He was he absolutely loathed all of that stuff. But then, yeah, he kind of faded into obscurity a little bit. Um there's a there's a very long story, and there's some things on some of the record labels and that. Um, but then he got basically and I mean there was probably other people involved, but la I know Thurston Moore was a huge fan from Sonic Youth, huge fan of his, and was partially responsible for his kind of resurgence in popularity in the in the 90s, um, which is interesting because, as well, that's especially for me as someone who was more into the nasty, you know, the kind of noisy uh based music. From what I've sort of read about him, that kind of seems like he finally felt like he was in his scene. Like he was into bands like Throbbing Gristle and all this sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_03I mean I don't I don't know Throbbing Gristle, but from their name I can I can hear.
SPEAKER_01So he kind of felt I feel like he felt like he'd found a scene. I mean, by that time he was writing electric guitar music that wasn't really it was different and didn't necessarily I think people wanted the old style um more. Uh I think now some people are kind of getting into it. It's just his has become a lot more avant, it just became a kind of more a lot more avant-garde, and I think some of it was probably pretty bad, but it's certainly it's just more experimental. Um uh but yeah, so he kind of went through these phases, and and and then you know, on the back of all that, that's why you've got this kind of contemporary, you know, the the American primitive movement is relatively big right now, I would say. And it's there's quite a lot, you know, quite a lot of stuff in in Europe as well. A lot of pickers over over here. Yeah, so there's a lot, it's a long complicated story.
SPEAKER_03It's really interesting. Um and interesting that his yeah, persona, um and then yeah, you talking about you do yeah, you've mentioned noise quite a lot, yeah. Um which is cool to hear because yeah, I guess that's the thing that sort of makes that it work. Maybe his playing, maybe your playing. Maybe yeah, talking about more punk-esque bands. That yeah, that's what sets it. That's one of the identifying factors, isn't it, that really sets it apart. Is that embrace embracing noise rather than seeing it as a yeah, an unpleasant thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean and I think that is in the contemporary guitar solo movement, that's becoming much more of the thing that you do as opposed to the sort of 60s, 70s beautiful, beautiful, you know, transcendental guitar sound.
SPEAKER_03But then I I don't know, but then I think about so many artists who well especially with Instagram, right? Where like perfection um and I suppose I'm talking about the weirdo guitar seed. The weirdo guitar. I want to be in the weirdo guitar seed. That's um, yeah, yeah, because I think that's what was in my head, and that's yeah, that's what I'm sort of like juxtaposing it, juxtaposing it with that sort of yeah, uh everything must be perfect, every note must fall here, and yeah, whereas yeah, over over here with you.
SPEAKER_00I got no chance of that.
SPEAKER_03It's but it's just it's just really interesting philosophically because it's uh yeah, I think it's amazing, and I I can't, I don't know, I can't really explain why I think it's amazing, other than to say, well, like at the beginning talking about how like if someone's singing or or if they're talking, if they're upset about something, the voice sort of breaks, and there's a humor, there's like a fragility to it, and it's not perfect, it's broken, and that so it feels more sort of human, and but so but most people learning guitar are like desperately trying to make every note sound perfect, you know. If they're good, they're sat with their guitar teacher and it will be like, Oh, you're getting a bit getting a bit overexcited there when you're strumming that song because they can hear your strings buzzing. Do you want to just do you want to do it?
SPEAKER_01Do you want to tone it back a little bit there? Well, that's why all the greatest guitar players in the world definitely aren't guitar teachers.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, interesting. Yeah, because it takes confidence, doesn't it? I think I think I was saying that earlier, it takes sort of I'm not trying to imply that therefore you're like some kind of you know arrogant extrovert or something, but it but it sort of takes some kind of like self-belief, maybe, and just that's I yeah.
SPEAKER_01I just know what I like, what sounds I like, I guess. And I don't like the uh and I like I don't know, it's contrast, it's just more it's more fun, it's more interesting, you know. I it it is I think it is just a taste thing. I've never been interested in in in in per perfect music. It's kind of the I think it's the enemy of uh of of what I like, if anything, that sort of perfect nothing. I mean what what's the uh the the worst thing you can say about somebody's in in my sort of universe is like talking about super oh I was so high quality production on that. Fuck off, that's the absolute death. You don't want that, you won't want you want it to sound a bit bit DIY, you know.
SPEAKER_03That's wonderful. Um but well confidence in tastes, because I I think so many people have that sort of like lack of right. That's why people jump on the most mainstream thing, or because it's familiar, that sort of oh, it's okay to like that guy. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Because everyone else knows everyone is very sometimes too confident in the wrong days, really.
SPEAKER_03Okay, okay. Uh well Rick Rick Rubin's always banging on about it, right? In that sort of like confidence in in taste and like creating creating music that basically you like and screw everyone else, and if that feels good, go and do that. But I think I think for a lot of people that's like, oh, okay, um, you know, that's uh a big deal to do.
SPEAKER_01I don't know, that seems it seems easier just to write what you like then because you just can then you can write it rather than trying to figure out what anyone else wants. That seems really hard.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't think I could do that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I wonder if that is the that is a bar is just a huge one of the biggest barriers for people creating it, because yeah, ultimately you just would you say that you create music solely for yourself and then the sort of the next bit is just that oh maybe someone will like it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so. I mean it's it's yeah, I reckon it's it's hard as when you like more as you get further and further into your career, it's like oh shit. I hope I hope at least someone likes this next time.
SPEAKER_03Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, but that's you know, no no no one's perfect.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, yeah, maybe the power ballad isn't quite on brand. I'll set up a set an alter ego for that one sort of thing.
unknownYeah, no.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's about I but also like I there is a certain level of I do think self-indulgence is rubbish as well. Um but luckily I don't like that sort of there's a lot of guitar noodlers in the world, and uh I I I I hate it. I hate it so much. And uh but that's but that's interesting, right? Because if I like guitar noodling, I'd probably be more um inclined towards indulging it. Um which is then that is music for you. I don't know what I'm saying anymore. Um why do you hate it? Yeah, I don't know is the answer to it.
SPEAKER_03Why do you why do you hate it?
SPEAKER_01Why you know it's boring boring. It's just boring, it doesn't do anything. It just goes like who cares, man? So you're good at playing guitar, great.
SPEAKER_03I spend so much time or energy within well, in fact, I reckon about 80% of my role in recording these podcast episodes is trying to convince uh artists to be relaxed and to speak their minds. But um, but you're just you're just doing it amazingly, thank you. It's yeah, but there's a there's do you do you think it's uh do you do you think do you think that's like uh an okay thing though, right? Because they're just they're just doing it, they're enjoying it, and uh you know that gives them some kind of it's fine, you're allowed to do it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm just not gonna I'm not gonna listen to it. Yeah, yeah. Okay, people allow just because it's just because like I I personally don't like something, I don't think it should be struck from the universe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, no, but do you do you think uh do you do you think energy would be better spent in you know do you do you think it lacks creativity maybe, or do you think it just because it because it's technical heavy, right? As well. It's like it's focus on technique, focus on technique.
SPEAKER_01But I guess but it's just what people like doing, right? So I'm being kind of mean, but it's what you like. If you like being playing all the um perfect notes, and that's what you enjoy, right? About playing guitar or writing a piece of music, then that's fine. I just don't like that personally. I think I think it's boring, but that's fine. I'm sort of sure a lot of people think what I do is crap. That's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the whole thing here, exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Hmm, okay. Um when you practice, do you how much how much attention do you give to technique? Uh and do you think in a technical way, or is it a like in a textual, emotional, more abstract way, do you think?
SPEAKER_01It's kind of abstract. I mean, I don't even really practice per se. I'm usually just like writing music kind of constantly. Or if I say a new piece, I'll be sort of practicing it a little bit, I guess, in order to get it ready to play like on a record or live. Um but no, there's not really technique to it. I mean, some sometimes there'll be I can hear what I want it to sound like, and it's like physically difficult. So that will become a moment of I'm sort of focusing on the technique of just trying to be able to physically play it. Like certain certain patterns can be kind of challenging at times. But beyond that, it's yeah, I'm not I'm not like running scales. It's it's just trying to trying to write music all the time, you know.
SPEAKER_03And do and before like before shows, do you spend time sort of dialing in, connecting with what you're doing, or do you just get out, you rock out and it depends.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes I'll play have my guitar backstage and all you know, piss about on it. Um, I mean that's quite good also for writing songs sometimes. Just writing I've written new pieces of music just from not you know fiddling about in the on my guitar uh backstage, but sometimes no, sometimes just leave it out there. It depends on the gig, to be honest. Not everything is uh is physically arranged in such a way that you can you can do that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, don't always have a green room and uh a sort of uh yeah, that sort of wonderful structure. It's quite a privilege that ultimately, isn't it? Being able to have that sort of audience. I always find that a really interesting thing of where you know uh particularly for when you're especially when you're starting, right? Like the open mic performance scenario. I mean that that's just some kind of it's that's some kind of nightmare gig, isn't it? It's like you've got seventh circle of hell. You've got you've got like two, maybe three tracks to get in the zone if you like, and you know, the sound's gonna be awful. Uh, you know, you've got you've got to wait, you don't know quite you now go! Uh it's like uh but then as you sort of progress up, then it's like, oh okay, well maybe maybe the audience has is invested in in hearing you. I mean that's the I think that's the always the thing that I love most if it's a ticketed thing and it's like well this is an easy win. They've paid, like they they really want it to be good.
SPEAKER_01I guess sometimes I've been at gigs of maybe not mine, but I've been present at other people's gigs, which people have paid for, and they won't shut the f up. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. The the talking at gigs thing. Does it have you have you sort of a problem? Is is it? Do you do you feel you really feel it at the moment?
SPEAKER_01Or not so much at my like personal shows, because I guess my shows is more like it's more music nerd type, but certainly at uh going to gigs that are a little bit broader uh in terms of the fan base, the talking can be like a real problem, I think. I don't know if it's a post I know I've heard other people talk about it. If it's like a post-COVID thing, people have sort of lost their manners a little bit. Lost their manners, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think it's a detachment thing as well, right? Isn't it? It's just like it's hap- something you people aren't necessarily so immersed and like holding up a phone.
SPEAKER_01It's weird as well. Well, I've seen people like go to a gig, talk all the way through it, and then like buy a bunch of merch and like pose with the merch, you know, probably for some social media thing. I'm like, but you didn't you didn't listen to the music. What are you doing? I think gigs are expensive as well. I don't know who who are these people are that can they can like they can afford to drop that much money and then like completely ignore the thing you're theoretically there to you know experience.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, very, very strange. I think yeah, I think it can be just a sort of uh um yeah, an experience for people. It just yeah, it can be, can't it? Um yeah, maybe like festivals sometimes it can be a little bit like that as well, isn't it? It's just sort of a tick on the box, perhaps, been to a festival that um could be good though, you know.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes it depends I think that really does depend on the festival. Um because yeah, some festivals, I don't know, they they're great because like it's the sort of festival that you know that a person goes to to absorb as much music as they can. So I don't know, I just played I just played Nelsonville in um uh in um in the States, and that was great. Like that was a root that really like sitting out sort of sitting on a big uh well it was in the forest actually, but sitting sort of on the grass, very, very attentive, like kind of committed you know it felt like that sort of that like so you get those sorts of festivals. I feel like people that go to those tend to be a little bit more, you know, I guess actively interested in music rather than just rather just going for a festival experience thing, which is valid too, right?
SPEAKER_03That's the to go back. I'm not going like you shouldn't do that, but yeah, I think in increasingly maybe I don't know. I I I just have this kind of idea that things are people aren't so satisfied with just a a gig anymore. And kind maybe that's partly coming from how we're experiencing music is usually in a visual thing as well. So it's like just going to a gig. It's like we you know, going to a festival is more you're going for the experience of being outdoors, being around people, the workshops, the food, the the smells, the button.
SPEAKER_01I don't get it. I don't like I like a gig, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03All right. Well, thank you so much. I think we're I think we're good. Thank you. It's been a been a pleasure.