The Alternative Acoustic Podcast
A deep dive into acoustic artistry, with the guitarists who play their own way. Hear the stories behind their innovative guitar playing and receive exclusive tips and tricks to enhance your playing and creativity.
The Alternative Acoustic Podcast
Episode 14 - Stuart Ryan - Campenella, Open Strings and More
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In this episode Chris chats with Stuart Ryan, check out the accompanying lesson at https://www.alternativeacousticpodcast.com/stuartryan Check out some of Stuarts books at https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/Stuart-Ryan/author/B08P51Y9JQ This podcast is brought to you by Ibanez UK.
In this episode, I chat with Stuart Ryan. Now, Stuart is a real legend in the acoustic guitar playing and finger style world, both as an artist and as an educator. So many modern acoustic finger style players have been inspired by his artistry and compositions and arrangements, or in fact by his lessons within wider teaching, or of course in his iconic work in guitar magazines, and frankly, some of his tab books, which are just absolutely perfect. Now, within the episode, I think the fact that Stuart is a fantastic educator really comes across because the tips and tricks and the musical information that he is sharing is just done so brilliantly and clearly, which made it very, very easy for me to create an accompanying lesson with this episode, which is something from now on I'll be doing with each episode. A lesson that has been inspired by the conversation and the artist that I'm chatting with. Stuart talked about the campanella technique and using open strings or making open strings do the work for you, as I think he phrased it for me. And I've brought that into an accompanying lesson. If you head to alternativeacousticpodcast.com, you will find the lesson there. It's for free, there is a short video, and there is a tab as well. Now I found the conversation super inspiring to have, and actually, I found it really inspiring creating the lesson based off these wonderful things that Stuart shared. So I really hope that you get the opportunity to enjoy and be inspired by this conversation and the lesson. But it makes me deeply sad that there's not so many big opportunities, but then too much.
SPEAKER_00That's the thing, for the people that ran these things, like yourself, you know, it was very much a labour of love. And acoustic guitar is still a small scene. It's funny, really. I mean, you know, the the change in the acoustic guitar world over here kind of came when when Tommy first started coming over in 2000, 2001. All of a sudden it shifted from being acoustic guitar played solo in in folk clubs, and Tommy made it a viable thing. You know, guys like Tommy and Eric Roach made it a viable prospect to take out into larger concert halls, really. And so for a while, that's that you know, there was that explosion of it, and that that explosion of interest. Um But of course, you know, it does things do shift, you know, tastes shift as well, and you kind of have to move with them, I guess. You know, it's just the nature of it. You know, you look at um I mean I always find the history of Abbey Road recording studios really interesting, because you know, that went from being a place that was, you know, heavily classically orientated, early film schools, and then all those people, you know, they w they ended up out of work when it became a place for the Beatles to record, you know, and that that was a shift as well. So there's always been these seismic shifts in music. You know, Napster emerges at the end of the 90s and people stop selling music. So you know, you just gotta always roll and change with things basically.
SPEAKER_03What about guitar mags?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, guitar mags.
SPEAKER_03I mean Because I proper grew up on that, man. I I really, you know, and you're amazing. Yeah, me too. Really?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I grew up on the American ones, so you know, from like 1990 onwards, I grew up on um Guitar World and Guitar for the Practing Musician, which were which were great. Not the English ones, I didn't really read, I never really read um guitarist and guitar techniques and stuff like that. Um and then I started writing the guitar techniques in 2003, I think it was. And so, yeah, you know, that was 2003.
SPEAKER_03How old are you, Stuart?
SPEAKER_0049.
SPEAKER_0349, wow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Maybe maybe people think I'm a bit younger than I am, but yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm very nearly 50. So 2003-4, I started with uh with GT, and then that ran for um But so you were but also you were pretty young.
SPEAKER_03I'm very bad at maths, so maybe you can help me, but you were pretty young about to be like I was about 25, 25, 26 when I got going with all of this. Um did you feel proper excited to be doing that at that time?
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, yeah, because what you know one of my ambitions had always been to write for one of the mags, and so when that came along, it's like, oh man, this is a box ticked for me, and this is great, you know. And it was you know, it's income, don't get me wrong, of course, it was a job, you know, it's great. Um, you know, it's a freelance thing, but it's a it is a column, it was a job, and it you know led to certain things. I guess you always um there's a there's a part of you that always assumes those things will lead to bigger things, and and in some ways they don't, you know, you always think Sting is gonna read my column on cascading open scales, and then the next thing I'll be on a world tour, you know. That's what you think me 26, anyway. You know, I'm I'm I'm I'm half joking, obviously, but um you know it was it it was it was interesting. I love that gig, but I mean the thing is it was like a learning curve for me as well, because you know, I I I had to learn how to do those things each month. They just say, you know, make it sound like Bert Janch, make it sound like Lindsay Buckingham, make it sound like Tommy, you know. So each month.
SPEAKER_03Well, were you always doing it in the style of not always, probably?
SPEAKER_00No, not always. Sometimes they'd say, you know, can you can you do some original pieces? Um other times it would be transcribe things. I mean, some of the hardest things I've done musically have been recording and working for publishing companies because it's note for note, you know. Right. Um there's that there's that uh you know that that fleet with Matt Tune um big love. And recording that note for note was like, man, this is killing me. You know, this is killing me. And back then, this this is in the days when when most of us still weren't using things like logic, we were using like hard disk recorders. So you mean you had a monochrom screen that was that big, and you'd have to try and do some edits on on basically what was a straight line waveform, which would occasionally go like that, and you'd be like, where's that mistake? I'll try and drop in there. So you know, it's it's it's a lot easier these days. But yeah, so the mag the mags were great. You know, the mags are really cool.
SPEAKER_03Well that but I I think that in the style of thing is particularly interesting. Because did I explain in the email that I'm going to do it in the style of Stuart Ryan after this? No. Did I not? Are you happy with that? I pity you.
SPEAKER_00Of course. I'd love, I'd love, I'd love to hear it. Of course, I'd love to hear it. I don't think anyone's ever done that.
SPEAKER_03So uh Well, I'm re I'm really excited to do it, man, because I think I think you're well, I don't want to blow too much smoke up your ass because I don't I don't want to make you feel slightly sort of uncomfortable, but I just you know I I I'd really look forward to it because your playing is so magical. I don't interesting you've got a nice word. Uh yeah, yeah, thank you. Well I thank you, thank you for the compliment. It's all right, stop it now, stop it now. You don't um but it is it's really magical. It's really I think I think when I first sort of experienced your playing, I recognised the the cleanness and the clarity, and I was inspired by that. Um also slightly pissed off, probably. Uh you know what I mean? Like, well, but then I think what I now recognise as what what I really love, and I learned your black is the colour from your iconic finger style book.
SPEAKER_00Uh I did three of those.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that arrangement is just magical.
SPEAKER_00And I and I really go on that came about because it might Mike Dawes said, you know, oh, I'd like to hear you do that.
SPEAKER_03Well, an arrangement of that tune.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, arrangement of that tune. I can't remember why he said that specifically a long, long time ago. Um, and I I I've always loved it, and I was really familiar with the Cara Dillon version actually. I think it was the Dubliners that maybe did, you know, like a really famous one. But I really like the Cara Dillon version because she kind of brought darkness to it. Um, and so I sort of started it from there, and that's just piano and voice on that one. Um so yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, I mean let me continue to massage your ego slightly. Should we say you need to because that but that it was one of the very few pieces that I've ever learned beginning to end because I I just I just have a I'm just inherently lazy. I sort of tend to learn how to do it.
SPEAKER_00No, it's a hard it's a hard thing. I went through a phase of learning Tommy, Martin Simpson, Eric Roach, you know, learning those pieces absolutely note for note, and I enjoyed it. There were two things I realised. Firstly, memorising that stuff is hard.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And secondly, it's like wearing someone else's slippers. You know, when you get to a certain level playing-wise, um, it's actually quite hard to play other people's stuff note for note because it just doesn't quite feel like if you're in the classical world, and obviously you're always playing repertoire, but in the steel string world, I always think you know, it's very hard to kind of keep yourself out of it. And inevitably it's like you know, the more you play, and I'm sure you you you feel this, the longer you play, the more you learn, the more it becomes like a speaking voice. And so for you to start changing your speaking voice, your enunciations, your pitch, uh it takes work and doesn't feel quite natural. And to an extent, playing other people's music can feel like that. Not not necessarily, but you know, it can. And then there are pieces where you go, you know, these things fall under the fingers. I mean, I I you know, I used to love Eric's pieces. Eric's pieces were so well written, but really hard. Because you know, there's a there's a time when you think hard stuff is fast stuff, and you know, you kind of grow out of that. And Eric's stuff was nuanced, but it always had enormous stretches. You know, Eric could do huge stretches, so he'd be playing these things and going, How on earth? And I remember I he he uh he asked that I play his funeral, which was very sad. Oh god back in I think 2005. This was and he wanted his he wanted me to play his piece um with these hands. And it it's actually a really hard piece, you know, and there's a one there's one stretch, and you're like, I can't do it, you know. I remember performing it.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that has to be the toughest acoustic guitar gig ever.
SPEAKER_00It's very it's very hard because the audience was obviously Gordon Giltrap, Martin Taylor, Clive Carroll, loads of those people, and it's a terribly sad situation, and you can't play it. Yeah, I mean that was I I don't I you know I never really got nervous in terms in playing situations, but that was like, oh man, I'm I'm properly terrified.
SPEAKER_04God, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So um that was that was difficult, and you know, I I I'm I got through it, you know. I didn't I didn't ball it up. No, I know I I was terrified that I balled it up and like you know, um I mean and that was just like a tiny, tiny part of a very sad day, but um you know, it's it was an honour. But I absolutely rinsed that piece. I played it so many times to make it second nature, and so that's the thing you have to do if you are doing other people's music, you just have to play it, play it, play it, and always I think find something of yourself in it. That could be a chord voicing you slightly change, it could be a tempo thing you do, but you have to try and inject something, otherwise you just feel like oh I'm doing this other person's thing and it doesn't feel good enough.
SPEAKER_03So pres presuming you had a close relationship with Eric Roche.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We were friends, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So do you think that partly that personal relationship, but also having to learn his music so intrinsically, do you think that put some of his voice into your playing? Do you think?
SPEAKER_00Possibly, a l a little bit, but I've been playing for so long by then that it was more kind of extracting certain things, chords, I think, was the thing I took from Eric, how he how he heard and voiced chords.
SPEAKER_01Can you tell me about that? Can you show me that?
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, I mean, really with with Eric, it was a case of you know, Dadgad for Eric went way beyond uh the whole, I'll play a bass line with a single string melody on the top. Right. And it was more like a pianistic thing, more like a like a jazz thing for Eric. You know, he knew chords in Dadgad, like Pierre Ben Susan does. You know, these guys play Dadgad like an alternate tuning. So you don't hear the same cliches, you you hear textures and and and colours that you wouldn't normally hear many other people play. Because Eric's big thing was, you know, Dadgad and B flat. So he liked he liked doing things like arranging somewhere in the rainbow, somewhere over the rainbow, in Dadgat and B flat. Things that people wouldn't normally do. Because everybody, you know, everyone jumps in Dadgad and plays the same big D chords and goes, oh wow.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so not using the open string so much essentially.
SPEAKER_00No, no, exactly. Just finding voicings um you know that were far more challenging, not those same set of voicings. Because Dadgad's a really funny one, you know. Dadgad is like that gateway to alter tuning that everybody discovers at the same at some point, and then everybody thinks they're playing something new, and then they're kind of like playing variations on every DadGad theme that everybody's ever played. That everyone's like pulled into 6'8 straight away. And I see it all the time. I see, you know, older and younger players like here's here's my new composition in DadGad, and you're like, okay, you know, I've kind of heard that before. But that's part of the magic of DadGuard, it's that journey of, oh wow, you know. And it kind of comes back to learning other people's music, doesn't it? It's like if you learn other people's music, then you kind of see those things. If you don't, then you end up playing the same things in DadGad. Everybody else does. So it's sort of a sort of a poison chalice, I think, that kind of thing. Alter tunings in general.
SPEAKER_03What do you think are your um I'm fascinated to just know, even if you're gonna answer this, you might just flat out say, no! What are you what are your um little idiosyncrasies and Stuart Ryan voices? Bearing in mind, I'm going to do the Stuart Ryan style file in a minute. Yeah. What do you think uh well in standards? Show me standards. Show me, please show me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, so in standards, obviously the colour of ninths. You know, all these kind of, I don't know if you can see this. You know, open string chords, you know, seconds, ninths. So I I was always into kind of the rich chord voicings thing for me, really. So it is like um why play a major chord when you can add a ninth or an eleventh or a thirteenth to it and get some colour.
SPEAKER_01Can you describe a tiny bit of the fingering of a couple of those? Just for some.
SPEAKER_02It's amazing when I do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, everything starts with a triad for me. I mean, everything starts with a triad, root third, fifth, and then you can manipulate the chord from there. So the problem with guitar is we only have six strings, and really you only ever want to play four. Well, I mean, sorry, I should qualify that. If you're playing with other people, you only want to play about four. Because other you know, I've been told off by piano players and hammered organ players more times than I care to remember.
SPEAKER_03You don't want to listen to them, man.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, I love I love playing with those players, but it's it's a it's a totally different discipline because um you know you can't do your guitarist things, you know, that really when you're with a piano player is that you know it's ne it's never that or that. So for me, yeah, so the tri, you know, I take a triad, you know, so I'll describe it, uh, you know, like a root position a major triad. Root third, fifth. So I'm on the DGB strings, frets seven, six, five, A, C, sharp E. So the real thing for me is I like fourths. So I've just dropped the fifth, got rid of the fifth, I always get rid of the fifth, get rid of the fifth. Now I've got root third, fourth, or root three eleven, one three eleven. So I I think of it, I think of all of it in terms of one, three, five, one, three, eleven, one, three, seven.
SPEAKER_03There's a lot of numbers there.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, that's that's that's that's how I think about it, yeah. So I think about try uh about chord. So you know you can get so there's a major seven, you know. Uh A fret seven, C sharp fret six, now go to fret nine on the B string. There's your A major seven, put your fifth on top, put your ninth on top. A major nine. So for me, it's like, you know, um the the reason I do that, when I was about twelve, twelve or thirteen, my mum took me to a music shop, and she said, you can have any book you want. So I went for the biggest book, which is the thousand.
SPEAKER_02That's a good twelve-year-old mindset. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm getting the biggest, most expensive thing whilst I can here. So it was the bumper book of pitcher chords. That's what it was called. It's like a telephone directory. And it was a thousand photos just of a guy's fingers on frets. And it went everywhere from A to A ad 9 to A sus. And I would memorize five of those shapes every night after school, and then you'd kind of turn the page and you'd get the next, you know, 75 chord shapes in B flat. So then you're memorising B flat six, B flat major seven, B flat minus seven, flat five, you know, and then after a while I was like, I I can't actually remember all this stuff. I better, I better learn what's actually going on, otherwise I'll drive myself crazy. So I learned triads, you know, and I learned I learned that thing of what is a triad, root third, fifth. And you know, I'm a huge, I'm a huge advo advocate for triads, triads set you free. You know, I was messing about with this. Check this, check this out, this is really cool. So here's like a really shit sounding chord progression. Love a shit progression. So 60s, you know what I mean? Yeah. But if you take, if you know triads, the whole nature of it changes completely, completely. And that's the thing, it's like guitar is a curse because it's a visual shape-based instrument. So it's very easy to sort of just look at the thing, like I was doing with my pitcher chords book. But over time, you've got to treat it like a language and go, well, no, how do I assemble the stuff that I want to assemble? So that comes back to, you know, the the your personality and character as a musician is how you assemble the stuff. You know, I like spread triads. You know, those kind of sounds there where you're just opening up the chord, a little bit more like a piano player would. You know, I've learned some great stuff from piano players because that's what they do. You know, piano players can look at their instrument and just see it all and go, well, I want that bit, I want that bit, I want that bit, and that bit. Whereas guitar players are like, how many, you know, in the 60s they called them grips, how many grips do I know? How many shapes do I know? And you've got to get away from that. You've got to get away from that.
SPEAKER_01Did they really grips?
SPEAKER_00That's interesting. That's what they called them, yeah. They called them grips. So uh John Lennon and Paul McCartney met and bonded over sharing grips, you know, which is really cool. You know, it's like, show me that G. Oh wow, you know, what do you do for a C? Well, I'll do this. Oh, what? I haven't seen that one. Now that's so cool, isn't it? Um, you know, and they're not worried about triads necessarily, but you know what I mean? It's like when you start thinking about chords and all that kind of thing, then your your playing changes quite dramatically.
SPEAKER_03What about though? Your you and you mentioned at the beginning very briefly, you talked about I think cascading harmonics, but I think you do lots of well, not we can talk about harmonics, but there's a lot always seems to be a lot of sort of cascading stuff, um, like campanella. I know that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not about MGL, that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_03Ukulele, I didn't know that from. I didn't know if it was in the guitar, but I hear that a lot in what you do. In fact, if black is the colour, I think you start with this delay da. I don't I maybe I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I can't remember it. Um one thing I learned from Martin Taylor in terms of writing and particularly arranging is um always write an intro. Always write an intro before you get into the piece, which is interesting, a very subtle but amazing piece of advice because it does a couple of things, you know, it sets you up to play, it sets the audience up to hear something. So instead of going straight into the piece, straight into the arrangement, you're kind of exploring things and exploring the mood to begin with. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. If you always go straight in to the melody, you're kind of giving it away instantly. Whereas if you kind of build, you kind of that the whole thing has more impact. You can kind of you know, you sort of wander and then bring in the melody, and there's this that sudden recognition from an audience of, oh, I get this, I know it. Um But yeah, no, the the Cascading Scales thing. I've always liked that sound. I think um I remember reading a column in about '93, probably getting back to guitar magazines. I think it's probably Jennifer Batten.
SPEAKER_03That's a that's a long time to keep that piece of information there.
SPEAKER_00I've still got them. I've still got them. But yeah, Jennifer Batten did a column on um on uh OpenString scales.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_00And so that's that's very cool. And then obviously, no, you get the Chad Atkins Chad Atkins approach.
SPEAKER_03What what can you break down technically a little bit of what happens there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, it's such a cool thing to practice because you're uh again, you're thinking in terms of notes rather than shapes. So let me see if I can get this.
SPEAKER_03Because it won't it won't be it won't be visual, of course. So it's a good thing. Ah, of course, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Let me walk through it so you know the the the Chad Atkins thing is to Take a standard G major scale. So I'm on fret three of the low E string, second finger. You play for the scale. Frets three to five. G A. And then uh A string and B C D. Threats two, three, five. Same thing on the on the um D string frets two, four, five. So that basic makes it.
SPEAKER_03You should start again and go really slow. So oh, oh, oh, oh. Standard box shape. So you're starting on the G.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so G A G A D C D. That's it. But I haven't done the open strings yet, I'm just doing closed.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I see. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00So standards, you know, G A B C D E F sharp.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so we'll practice every day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, standard G major.
SPEAKER_03Everyone should practice that G major every day.
SPEAKER_00That's what Larry Carlton says.
SPEAKER_03What are you doing with your life?
SPEAKER_00What are you doing?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00You're not living. You haven't lived until you've practiced the G major scale. Now Larry Carlton says, play the G major scale every day. Well, play the major scale every day. Before you exactly. But then you simply say, well, you know, what can I replace with an open string in there? G? Well, yeah, that's going to appear. A, that's going to appear. B, that's going to appear. C won't, but D will appear as an open string. E will appear as an open string, and then F sharp won't. So then you you end up with this very cool, non-linear way of playing because you're going to play a G followed by an open A string. Now you're going to have to play a B followed by a C. So I'm stretching. I've got the fourth finger on the seventh fret of the low E string. But at the same time, my first finger on the third fret of the A string, that's the B to C, so G A. B C D. And then you hear the B C D. The D is the open string. Well, that's the Eric thing. Eric's stretched. Eric's stretched bigger than that, but so you get that campanella thing you're talking about talking about, you know, that beautiful cascade effect. And you could, you know, you could take that all the way.
SPEAKER_03And then did you go back to the seventh on the A? Well, you could.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I'd I'd take it all the way across. You know, the Chad Atkins thing would be to carry on. G, A, B, C, open D string. Then you get fret seven of the A string, which is your E. F sharp is on fret four of the D string. And then you get that open G string. Oh. So there's that first, there's that octave, you know, let one octave scale and you can carry on with it, huh? But the idea is to keep everything ringing. So, you know, again, piano like.
SPEAKER_03That's tasty.
unknownI like that.
SPEAKER_03I like that. Because it makes sense on the ukulele, because it's got the tuning thing. But it sounds so beautiful on the on the guitar. It's great on guitar.
SPEAKER_00You know, the the trick then is you do that in all twelve keys. You know, you do do it in B flat. You know, B flat would be uh I haven't done B flat for a long time, but B flat would be B flat C D F quite easy. Um I haven't done B flat for about 15 years. But the cool thing is, you know, so you start hearing things like these close close voiced ninths, which is really nice, you know, B flat C. So Yeah, so Cascading scales are great, very big for Celtic music, because Celtic music, a lot of it was played on the harp anyway. So that you need you need that open string ringing sound if you're going to play the old O'Carolan pieces and stuff like that. Now, DadGad lends itself to it, but it's also fun to try and get that sound into standard tuning as well. So yeah, you know, cascading scales are you know a large part of um of the finger style stuff for me. Filter as well.
SPEAKER_02Alright, so for a Stuart Ryan, we've got the cascading scales. We've got what is chord-wise, we talked about nines, did we?
SPEAKER_00Nine, lots of nines, which you know, you can hear those nines are coming from cascading scales. You know, I'm playing a B flat on fret six of the E string. I'm playing a C. There's your nine, or interval of a second anyway, on fret three of the A string, followed by an open D string, the third. So you can hear that. That's that colour. Rather than uh you know, uh root third, fifth, B flat major to it. Of course. Root, second, third. So I always think about, you know, that's kind of like seeing guitar in three dimensions. So if you sort of think two dimensions are just playing fretted notes on the neck, bring open strings in, you kind of bring that third dimension of playing where the open string does the work for you. So it's really cool. It's a really cool thing to explore. Um, great on acoustic guitar, less less useful on electric guitar, depending on what you're doing, but um I suppose it's because it's a sustain thing, right? Yeah, yeah, it's a ringing sound, you know, you're kind of making the acoustic guitar more piano-like. You know, you have that sustain of things ringing against each other. Beautiful. And there's like um most of an A natural minor scale, just played with lots of open strings.
SPEAKER_03Now, you looking at your right hand, which is actually the thing that I was gonna ask about next, because uh for me, that's what I always identify as the the voice, if you like. Yeah, big time, yeah. I think you know, it's well from a teaching perspective, it's that fret use your right hand however you want because it'll create you know your sort of your voice, but with your left hand fret it logically because it's not going to change the sound, so you might as well make your life easier. But what you're playing that scale with thumb and index. Do you do you have like a system for when you're sort of switching between arpeggio playing when you're more classical and you sort of have a Pimmer sort of thing, and then you switch into like country dude, and all of a sudden it's um and two, or what?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, big time. Big time. I mean that's the that's the part of the challenge with the right hand, is there are so many different approaches, you know. I think um getting back to the Chet Atkins thing, the kind of the National American thing is that heavy rants on P-I-M, the Jerry Reed thing as well, P-I-M. We sort of learn P-I-M-A. And so a lot of people fall apart because they try and play things I-M-A, which are far better served P-I-M. But they they don't think about taking the thumb down to the higher strings.
SPEAKER_03And do you say that because it's but where the accent is there, is played with the thumb better, sort of simplified.
SPEAKER_00The accents, so if you're doing, you know, if you're doing like a banjo roll, so to walk everyone through that, so that's an A7 chord. So that's my fourth finger on the sixth threat of the G strings, that's a th that's the third. I've got my third finger on the fifth threat of the B string, so I've got the fifth, and the flat seventh is on the top, so it's frets, frets uh six, five, three. And that's on the G B and E strings, six, five, three. So you know your natural inclination is to go, well, these three fingers appear to live down here, my IMA fingers. So surely that pattern is going to be some sort of I M A I M A I M A. If you had a bass note again, it's a yeah, sure. But if you're picking things and that becomes a P I M. And it's banjos. You know, or or picking them, you know, P-I-M. Rather than IMA. Different tone as well. And you know, you get you get fatigue a lot quicker in IMA than you do in P-I-M. You know, so that's you know, some things like that, just adjusting that right hand and thinking, well, my right hand doesn't have to play these patterns. You know, if you think about it in the classical world, they learn lots of different right hand positions and patterns, um, sometimes for tone, sometimes for practicality. Whereas steel string players, they get, you know, I've seen this so many times, steel string players really get stuck in my thumb lives on the bass strings, and my IMA fingers live on the treble strings. It's like, well, the IMA can move up as well, you know, when I was doing that. That's me using the thumb and the index finger crossing the strings.
SPEAKER_03Do you think in some ways that is a hang-up from the culture of learning steel string guitar from a almost quasi-classical perspective, though? Here's your learn your picking like this.
SPEAKER_00Whereas there's because there's so many country pickers, isn't there, who like the yeah, the thumb and fingers are going up and down and moving around and I mean the tra you know the Travis thing is is thumb and first finger, which is actually so much harder just to I can't do it, you know.
SPEAKER_03I don't know how Mel Travis um you jump into using the thumb pick, man, from being a non-thumb pick dude to go and just Yeah, yeah, I use the thumb pick.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I use the thumb pick quite a lot, yeah. Really?
SPEAKER_03Right. I didn't even realise that. But not so much in the delicate introspective acoustic stuff though, right?
SPEAKER_00Or is it uh No, no, so I don't use the thumb pick for um I only use a thumb pick when I want the effect of the thumb pick. So if I'm playing that kind of stuff. Mrs. Hippie John Hurt was a big influence for me. My dad would just come home with CDs some days, you know, he'd say, found a CD today, you know, at a shop or a garage, and you'd go, Who's Mrs. Hippie John Hurt? You know, listen to it and like it. And same with Django and stuff like that. So um, you know, some that that that was the cool thing back then. You'd you'd discover people randomly, like Mrs. Hippie John Hurt. And it wouldn't be like, oh, well, I'll go on YouTube or Spotify and consume everything they've ever done. You'd go, well, I've got one CD with 11 songs on. I better get to work. You know, so you could focus a lot more, which is so much harder to do these days. So yeah, you just hear something and go, what's going on there? And of course that was before you you'd go online and go, I wonder if there's a transcription of this. You know, you you teach your ears. And you know, very different. Very different back then. Maybe, you know, some ways better, some ways worse.
SPEAKER_03What's the yeah, what's the res well, I I for me the result of learning in that way was always that I would emulate something rather than copy, because I couldn't copy it, because I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't be able to. I would just sort of try and make a similar sound. But uh what what were the outcomes for you for doing that?
SPEAKER_00I I was note for note, I I was note for note, a little bit OCD about it. So, you know, I'd learn Megadeth solos note for note. It'd have to be note for note. How old were you when you were doing that? 12, 13, 14, you know, and it'd have to be note for note. I mean you you know, that wasn't like I think I'll site read some Megadeth today, you know. That was slow.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00But you know, I had I had the I'd had the tab books. So I wasn't using my ears so much on those things. I'd have the tab book and be like, right, you know, I've got to learn the solo from Hangar 18, note for note. And I just but they'd be cool projects, you know, cool projects. And then I mean I don't learn things note for note now unless I have to, you know, professionally. I I don't I don't really I transcribe licks note for note. I like doing that, but I I'd kind of, you know, unless I have to do things note for note, I'd I'd generally rather avoid it. I did a I did a lot of recording work for a company recently, which is note for note, and that was you know, some of that was really hard.
SPEAKER_03Come on, what what was that as a as a project? What were you trying to explain?
SPEAKER_00Uh his exam pieces.
SPEAKER_03Because you do the rock school thing, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I've done I've done I've done pretty much pretty much all of them over the years. Um but again it's hard. This one was um recording some Rodrigo Gabriela, and I I actually couldn't do bits of it. Right. Because I don't really do, you know, you do the percussion thing great.
SPEAKER_03Well, you but I don't do the Gabriela strum. It turns out I don't either. I don't think many people do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And one of the one of the bits was um, you know, actually drumming. That would clip the audio nicely, but one of them was actually drumming on the guitar body and you know, it's it's interesting. I said to my um I said to the drummer in my band, you know, how how how hard are triplip hands on on bongos, which is effectively what you're doing. He's like, oh they're a cinch. And I was like, what about a you know 131 BPM? He's like, yeah, that's fine. And he started doing it, you know, and I was like, oh man, I really suck at that. You know, and I I it was hard, I really struggled to get that right because it was um well, it was a written percussive part, I should add, as well. So it wasn't even dubba da dubba da dubba, you know, thumb palm, thumb, da-da-da. It was actually 16th note triplets but with a written rhythm and accents. And that nearly killed me. You know, thankfully I was recording, you know, I've got a little studio, that's why that's what I have here. So thankfully it was from home and it wasn't that.
SPEAKER_03But that was spliced up a bit, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, you know, you can't lie, there's a little bit of um corrections there without shadow of a doubt. And that was hard. You know, I mean that's the thing. You know, the thing is, you know, everybody's got fallibilities, and some people are just really great at hiding them. I'm not gonna say any names, but I know some players who are astonishing, but there are places where you could stop them in their tracks straight away. But they don't advertise the fact.
SPEAKER_03You mean things that they're crap at, basically. Yeah, mate, yeah, for sure. I mean, are you just talking about me? I mean, is that because there's a lot of things?
SPEAKER_00No, I'm I'm you know, I'm a per I'm a percussion dullard, it turns out, you know.
SPEAKER_03Um but then you're you're good at most stuff though, aren't you?
SPEAKER_00Let's go because I can I could fake the percussion thing to a point. But you know, I I used to do a lot with guys like Thomas Leib and John Garman, you know, you'd look at those guys and go, oh no, they are masters of this. And you yourself, you know, you look at those guys and go, no, these guys are masters of that thing. I'm not even gonna, I'm not even gonna do it. And that's the pro I guess that's the professional thing, actually. So if guitar is something you do for fun, then you'll you would look at that and go, Oh yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna do that. Whereas professionally you go, no, not my wheelhouse. He'll just hold me back.
SPEAKER_03Because you can't own that. Yeah, you you're not gonna be top of your game on that.
SPEAKER_00And yeah. I mean, I'm not I'm not top of my game on any of it, but um you know, there's there's points where you realise you'd be topper of the game at least. And that stuff is like, no, you know what? Eric, John, Thomas is like, no, I'm not gonna go down that road. I can't, you know, it just doesn't feel natural to me, you know. So yeah, you find different things. But if if if if it's something you do for fun, then yeah, do it. Own own whatever you can. That's the luxury of saying I'll spend a year I'm gonna learn one of Chris's pieces, you know. And it could take me a year to get it in place, but I'll do it.
SPEAKER_03Probably because the tab that I wrote was probably so bad that you'll have to It doesn't sound like Chris's piece yet. I've been here for ten years. I don't understand it. Sorry to everyone who's purchased one of my tabs. Um it's alright, I can say that because so few have.
SPEAKER_00So it's uh you know Well, I mean that's the thing that you know, remember, it's a small, it's a small world, acoustic guitar. You know, it's I think um I think I think that the time you realise it's a small world is when you do it, you keep encountering the same people over and over again, don't you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You go to the festivals and it's like, oh, these people are here again, you know. So it is it is a small world. Bigger now, I guess.
SPEAKER_03I guess it's bigger now, but um it but it spans so many genres. I know well with this podcast, it's been so exciting in thinking about who we're gonna bring in. Because I I think in some ways it starts well the first episode was John, and um I think in my head I hadn't really had a huge amount of time to think about it when we started. But I was thinking, I suppose, alternative acoustic and thinking quite percussive and progressive, yeah, but then but then over time it's really gone, oh no, it's alternative acoustic because there are so many alternatives. There's exactly you know, all around the globe, and then the genres within those continents, and it's um um more so kind of more so than electric as well, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, electric's obviously a huge thing, but electric um kind of compartmentalizes into bigger genres. So you can be a blues guitarist but but play a different style of blues, but you still exist within that huge uh blues world, rock, uh jazz, funk. You kind of get uh fewer specific niche labels, I guess, uh in electric guitar. You know, so if you play blues, you might be a swing jump blues guitar player, but you exist within that blues world. Whereas with finger style, you know, it kind of you dig deeper down into niches like percussive finger style guitar, Celtic finger style guitar, solo finger style jazz guitar, you know. So it really is digging down deep into a niche. And that that's how you sort of you know constantly reduce your audience, basically. Oh okay, turn out 46 people around the world like that'll be the title of this episode. Stuart Ryan, constantly reducing your audience, constantly reducing your audience.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's that's what niches are, you know. You know, niches are funny things. On the one hand, a niche can reduce your audience, on the other hand, a niche can sustain you. Yeah, a thousand true followers thing, really, which is actually I think a lot harder to put into practice than all those books would make you think, but there's a theory there at least, anyway.
SPEAKER_03Do you spend a lot of uh on that? Do you spend a lot of time creating lessons still yourself through Stuart Ryan? Not so much.
SPEAKER_00I'm pretty I'm pretty busy um live at the moment, you know, so that's kind of where a lot of the money is coming from, live and royalties.
SPEAKER_03Well, as a session dude or as uh not actually live, playing playing live.
SPEAKER_00I have quite a busy band and we get around quite a lot. And that's that's modern country. So I mean the thing is, you know, I the thing with me is I've always jumped into pretty much any genre and quite happily worked within it.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00I've always, beyond finger style acoustic guitar, you know, kept myself going with everything from you know jazz trios to wedding bands to this thing, which is a countr a modern country band. And um and it's kind of you know, you run these things like a business, really. So um I mean I I don't do much solo finger style stuff at all these days. You know, I did a nice gig with Adam Miller a couple of months ago. He's great. He's such a good one. We had a fantastic time. Cool dude, great player. We we spent I totally need to have him on here. That's just we spent five hours in each other's company and then that was it, you know. But that that's the great the cool thing about musicians is you can spend five hours in someone's company and feel like you've known them for ten years. That's that's a great thing about music. Um, you know, you you you don't have that, you know, when you meet normal people, it's like, where are you from? What do you do? Oh, you work in um Oh right, okay, you work you at hedge fund. Oh right, okay, yeah. And you're from, oh right, yeah, yeah. No, I know Aberiswith, yeah. You know, whereas musicians are straight into like, what are you playing? I said, Martin Custom Shop. Oh right, okay, what have you got? I've got Aladdin. Oh, I like those, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And very quickly you you've known each other for years, you know. So that shared interest thing is it's really great, you know. I guess, you know, all all manner of things get that, but so that's a question.
SPEAKER_03But it's different though, man, isn't it? It's different, it's different that this the shared experience that you've had is sort of by be it sort of a spiritual, transcendental experience.
SPEAKER_00There's an emotion, there's an emotional content to it.
SPEAKER_03Or obsessive as well, like you talking about playing your G major scale before breakfast. You know, I think a lot of musicians get that. You know, when you say that to me, I'm like, yeah, I totally get that. That's because that one made me feel good.
SPEAKER_00It's definitely an introspective thing. I mean, I wasn't uh you know, I'm an only child, so I never had any pull from the from family life to do other things. It was you know, if I want to practice guitar for seven hours, I can do that, no one's gonna bother me. Oh mate.
SPEAKER_03I don't know if that's happy or sad.
SPEAKER_00Oh that's that's that's how I spent my my childhood, you know. You know, you you don't have brothers and sisters. Play guitar, man! That's like guitar. Yeah, it's not like we've got to take your brother to football. It's like I think I'll play my guitar all day. It's like, yeah, you know. Your mum and dad are like, Yeah, yeah, enjoy yourself.
SPEAKER_03Knock yourself out, Stuart. You can yeah, practice your practice your scales.
SPEAKER_00So you're dinner time. Yeah. So, you know, I do seven, nine hours a day and loved it.
SPEAKER_03My God, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. From tw from about twelve, you say, like.
SPEAKER_00I started about eleven or twelve. I reckon by by fourteen I'd probably, you know, I'd get home. I mean, I'd take my guitar to school. Did you do that to take guitar to school?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, a bit.
SPEAKER_00Well, I used to get I used to get told off for taking my guitar to school. Oh no. So I used to have to hide it. I used to hide it around the school and then play it at lunchtime and then have to hide it behind lockers and behind doors, all manner of places. God. And then teachers would find it, be like, I told you not to bring that in. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Why not? Play in your devil's music. What's the sort of what kind of school was this joint?
SPEAKER_00Was that the just very academic school, you know, music didn't feature.
SPEAKER_02So that's so sad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, I went I went back there for a school reunion last year, and um, now they've got an enormous music department. You know, you can't help but feel a little bitter about these things. It's just a beautiful music department. So uh yeah. But that was a long that was a long time ago. Long time ago.
SPEAKER_03But that that's I I actually feel better about that clarity in your playing that I described earlier. That was like, oh, it's great to see, but actually that really irritates because you were obsessed by it from an exact- Loved it.
SPEAKER_00I loved it.
SPEAKER_03I I definitely got that obsessive thing, but I think it came sort of more teenage years, but I mean really doubling down on it at that at that age must have been.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I absolutely loved it. Loved it from pretty much uh you know, pretty much first stinging fingers. It's like, ooh, that's good. It's biting, but man, I like it. Um day one, really, for me. Day one. How did you learn? Did you have a teacher? Did you teach yourself?
SPEAKER_03Uh largely myself. I did have a teacher a little bit at school, um you know, sort of 20-minute lesson that didn't have a huge effect. And I think at that time I wasn't still obsessed. Do you know what I mean? So it was just sort of there, and then something I'm not sure what it was that happened, but it was just playing on my own. Improvising. I had so I had like uh a zoom uh pedal with uh a little like a couple of different drum beats on it, yeah. And I would put my headphones on and just improvise all through the night, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and uh you make it your own, it's great.
SPEAKER_03That really took off, and that's yeah. Uh and I always find that with with with the music education as well, because of my own experience, I could you can see that it's like you it has to it has to come from you, doesn't it? It has to that obsessive thing. No one no one can make that click.
SPEAKER_00Like well, I think when you're at school, you know, you've got a mate who's learning the violin and a mate who's learning the saxophone, and and it drops off because they don't really want to be learning the sax or the violin. It's just the parents had that idea, you know. I don't think saxophone is cool, I love violin, but there's something about guitar which is you know, and you're a kid. Well for me it's like it's like wow, I can actually play the music I listen to, you know. So it it you kind of get that way in rather than you know, right, we're gonna learn I don't know, some Brahms today. You're 12 and you know, like oh I don't want to le I want to learn Paradise City, you know. But but then you know that's a great way of learning things as well. Just whatever whatever fires you up and keeps you going is the crucial thing. And what if you know you've got to carry it through life, so you've always got to be finding new things. Because the danger is, you know, it gets stale. You know, it's always heartbreaking when you meet people you know, and you go, You still playing? Oh not not so much these days, you know. It's like, oh man. And I think we've probably both encountered people that you know really got into it, had guitars made for them, the whole thing. Yeah, workshops and gigs, and then you you encounter them years later. Like, you playing? It's like, oh no, I sold to such and such, you know. Yeah, I don't don't play anymore. And that's you know, I can't relate to that. I'm sure you can't relate to that because guitar is like breathing for me. But I understand that i that there's other things they get into, you know, photography, motorbikes, whatever. Everybody's got something. You just have to find it.
SPEAKER_03Hmm. What do you do to keep it fresh?
SPEAKER_00Play guitar. Oh, uh, what do I do? Well what do I well, transcribing things, you know, I like transcribing things. If I've if I'm if I'm ever feeling too stale, then I'll say, right, I'm gonna learn something from a player that um, you know, will either push me or give me a new idea, or or I'm I'm pretty quickly like you, I want to make that my own. But um, you know, I was learning some Brent Mason licks a few days ago. It's like, oh, I need some new country licks, I'll you know, learn some more Brent. And and so that that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_03But you but you'll go and work it out yourself rather than go.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03That seems slightly sadistic to me. Like, oh no, I love that process.
SPEAKER_00I love that.
SPEAKER_03It sounds like such hard work, like, but you really you really like that hard work.
SPEAKER_00Well I like that, yeah. Like it's like for it's like it's like finding the pieces of the puzzle. But I used to do it for the mags, you know, transcribe this. Like, okay, I'm gonna transcribe this. And some of it would be very hard, it'd be fast forward rewind, fast forward, rewind. But you know, I whilst I had tab books in the early days, the thing you've got to remember is the tabbook would come out six months to a year after the album. So you would sit down and work out as much as you could. Sometimes you just couldn't get it, but um and the most of the tag book would probably be wrong as well. And often, yeah, often it would be wrong. I mean, I remember I had I had a guitar rival at school. There's a kid in the year above me called Fudge. I can't remember his real name, but his nickname was Fudge.
SPEAKER_03Have you met him since?
SPEAKER_00No, no, no. But he was, you know, he's really good. And I remember the Metallica album came out, the black album, and he'd learned the solo to Enter Sandman over the weekend. That solo with the War pedal. And we used to hang out in the music school. They didn't want us there, but we used to hang out in the kind of the foyer section. And I remember, I think it might, I might have been playing my practice ant on my squire. I remember he came along and like, oh, can I have a can have a go? I remember he played the Enter Sandman solo note for note, staring at me the whole way. And I was like, you mother. And stuff like that was great, because like, right, I've got to up my game, and you know, I got him back on something else. I learned like the thunderstruck solo, I don't know, but so there's a cool you know, that comp that competitive thing was quite useful, actually.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that's fantastic. If I if I transferred this conversation over to the music education podcast with uh a music educator, or they would be talking about how deeply unhealthy that is and how it's left in. Yeah, but you know, it's I'm fully behind it, mate. That's that's like what you learned that. Oh, I'm gonna play faster, I'm gonna play faster. Yeah, it was.
SPEAKER_00It's like right, I've got to, you know. And while music doesn't or shouldn't have to be competitive, sometimes that helps to give you that kick of going, oh, I've got to work harder, you know. And so yeah, we we did, and that carried on for years, me and him. You know, we had that rivalry. You know, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. I've got no idea whether he still plays now. I don't know. I'm I'm going back, you know, 35 years, but I hope he does. I don't know. Secretly, you could probably a lawyer now or something like that, you know. But he probably owns all the guitars he wants, to be honest.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, he probably uh manages hedge funds in Averisco.
SPEAKER_00Buys 59 Les Pauls. But yeah, you know, so that that was useful. That was that was that was cool doing that. And um, you know, there's a little group of us at school who kind of you know pushed each other forward doing that kind of thing, really. Um it's just a bit disconcerting the way you know he'd stare at you all the way through.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I do I do get it though. I do I said I didn't get the hard work of wanting to um transcribe something, but I do I do understand that that obsessional hard work, the physical element of that trying something over and over again. Oh, yeah I I imagine I'm not a gym guy by any means. I've I don't actually I've never actually been in one. Um but I I you know I I can imagine that that's that sort of oh it's that burn you've you've really uh done two hours of going Yeah I've I've I've dabbled with gyms, but I I I could never transfer my love of guitar to the love of the gym, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_00And I guess it'd be great, it would be great if you love going to the gym, you know, if you like really love it.
SPEAKER_03But I re I reckon it probably is that sort of there's a bit of pain, there's some kind of uh enjoyment out of the struggle, but with the musical element, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just challenge, isn't it? But then there's this the outcome is rather than I feel strong, the outcome is wow, I've created something beautiful, ultimately, or that sounds relatively cool.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, it's a it's a funny thing. I mean, I I still prefer picking up a guitar and playing my own stuff under my fingers, you know, but you can't you can't always do that. I mean, I mean, I don't work out finger style guitar pieces anymore. I used to do a lot of transcribing, Martin Simpson, Antonio Forcione, Martin Taylor, but I haven't done that for a very long time. Kind of kind of because I've got I've got nowhere to take it. You know, so it's not like Well, you're not gonna go perform it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think I think in the classical world, you spend a long time learning a piece because it's gonna be performed. Whereas in Fingerstyle, it's more like a personal journey, and um you know, you're not gonna you're not gonna take that out. So it becomes ultra personal. And then you look at it and go, can I input the time to do that? So, you know, when I was younger, I would. I'd learn entire complicated finger style pieces, you know. And some I could never get, you know, aerial boundaries, had a crack at that, just didn't fall under my fingers.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00That kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03Do you let it go?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I let it go. You know, Michael Hedges' style is so unique, it just didn't feel right to.
SPEAKER_01Did you ever meet Michael Hedges yourself?
SPEAKER_00No, no, I'm not that old. You're not that old. I remember reading, I remember reading when he died. I remember reading when he died. He died about 90 or 91. Oh, did he? Oh, sorry, right, okay. Because I know I think so. It might have been a little bit later, but I remember reading about it in the guitar magazine.
SPEAKER_03Let's find out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It could have been a bit later. It would have been later.
SPEAKER_03Amrit Sond, who you know. I know Amrit was talking about meeting um Michael Hedges a lot.
SPEAKER_00It would be after, I reckon it's more like 94, actually, Michael Hedges died. You tell me.
SPEAKER_03Michael. Michael Jackson, not Michael Jackson, Michael Hedges.
SPEAKER_00Michael Jackson. I never met him either.
SPEAKER_03There we go. Um later. 97.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, 97. Yeah, yeah, 97. I remember reading about it. I I I remember reading about that I would have been at university then. So I remember in 1991, they always had adverts with him in guitar magazines. But the problem is you couldn't hear aerial boundaries back then. There's no there's no way to hear aerial boundaries.
SPEAKER_03Well, because it just didn't get played on the radio or whatever.
SPEAKER_00You know, you're 14, you can't really afford to import a CD from the States. You don't even back then it's like, how do you even order these things? You know, you kind of how'd you order something from America in 1991? I think you had to like send send something off physically, then get something sent back to you. And no, no, how do I even do this? So yeah, I didn't hear Eric or boundaries until much, much later. Um, and bought bought the tab book for that. But you know, I I know people that play that great, John and Thomas, you know, they play that stuff. I'm like, oh no, I can't do that.
SPEAKER_03Was it was Eric Roche a big sort of okay?
SPEAKER_00But I guess being around Eric, you know, I was like, well, Eric owns that stuff, so I've got to find my thing really. Okay. Yeah, not that I have not that I have a thing per se, but you know, I have to.
SPEAKER_03Well you do have a thing. I'm doing a Stuart Ryan style file, so you do have a thing. Uh true.
SPEAKER_00I mean all all my all my music. I don't I don't release music for guitar players anymore. All my music gets recorded for TV programmes these days. You know, that's where it's ended up. Yeah, I don't I don't write music for guitar players now. Because that that I don't know, I just find that world too small. You know, I could spend days or weeks writing, recording, transcribing, you know, your own pieces. And you put them out into the wild and go, you know, anybody? So I write I write for T I write for TV, you know, and it gets it gets played all the time, you know, on TV.
SPEAKER_03But um Oh, that's cool, man. That's really exciting.
SPEAKER_00It's I mean it isn't, it isn't really, you know, it's it's um I I I guess the first time you find out that something's been played on TV is exciting, and then it just becomes you look at the you look at the usage, you look at the Rory statements and go, okay, that's pretty cool. Got played there, got played there, okay. But you know, no one no one's gonna listen to these programmes and go, oh man, you know how about that Stuart Ryan in the background? You know I'm always dust.
SPEAKER_03To be fair, the Garden as World theme tune was pretty influential on me, so that's uh Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean Gordon Giltrap's holiday theme was huge as well. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. That was massive. He did two of those. He did he did the BBC and ITV, and I remember those as a kid. They were really cool. But you know, I haven't done a I haven't done a title theme or anything like that. But you know, you you get older and you kind of view it all differently anyway, I suppose.
SPEAKER_03How does um on a completely non-guitar question? How does I is AI influencing that sort of sync live?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, unfortunately, unfortunately, uh dramatically and terribly. I did a session for a record label last year, which was a soul track. And um, you know, for TV or for like uh I can't don't even know what it was for. I think it was for for release, but I can't remember what it's for. But basically the whole thing, uh pretty much the whole thing was AI apart from guitar, which I found out afterwards. So I was recording on it thinking it was uh you know real, but it turned out it was all AI, and you wouldn't you wouldn't have known.
SPEAKER_03But they just wanted that real sort of spring game on top.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Guitar is one of the last things that AI is not quite there with yet, but will be ultimately. I mean the thing with guitar is there are so many textures to it that AI isn't quite there, but it will be. It will be. And you know, a lot of people um probably can't see that train coming. So it's almost like the Industrial Revolution for musicians, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_03You know, that's interesting, so it really is affecting you in that way, then you think it's taking some work and the label I write for are great, and they'd have no interest in um in AI.
SPEAKER_00And then that goes out through a larger label. But the problem is the clients or the people buying music, well man, they're gonna be like, what's the what's the cheapest way of getting it to sound like you know, Ariana Grande or whatever? So yeah, it's affecting it enormously. Now it's not quite there yet because you know AI cannot create, it can emulate, and it does a very good job of that. But it's not got to the stage yet where you go, wow, AI has created an entirely new genre. But you know, over time it probably will feed enough information in. And you know, I mean, you know, the CEO of Fender was banging on about AI recently. It's like that's not helpful.
SPEAKER_03What was he saying?
SPEAKER_00I can't remember what he was saying. He was basically I can't remember exactly what he was saying, but he was very much in supported AI. And you're like, well, man, come on. You know, but that's that's all look, there's always been a music business, hasn't it? There's always been a music business. And there's always been a conflict between the musicians, the creators, and the industry. And this is just the latest leg of of of that of that fight, really, you know, it's gonna carry on. Who knows where it'll end up?
SPEAKER_03But I I I wonder whether uh bringing this conversation full full circle to those guitar groups you were talking about, those and more guitar those guitar shows, like the Sheehan show and things like that that were more sort of um less, not that there's anything wrong with the big corporate shows as well, but they were more sort of homely and had a commute a grassroots sense, I suppose, is what I'm trying to aim at. But I do wonder whether that is it, is it gonna go more that way because of this? Because people want something authentic. Because online, from an online perspective, man, there's just so much AI hate that that is really, I mean, there's a a recent thing with um Di Dario, right, that you might have seen.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_03Um I mean it's fascinating to watch that unfold. There's such strong feeling, but I just wonder at what point will we see those people you know creating more real things for people to come to, or will we is it is it just gonna wash over?
SPEAKER_00I mean, you've got to look at a string company and go, you know, even to use some sort of element of AI in your product marketing is a bad idea. You know, that's marketing 101. You know, really know your audience and don't go against them with something like that, you know. I mean AI is what what what makes makes me laugh is when you see lots of concert posters, uh you know, designers are really suffering from it, and you see concert posters, and it's like, man, this is so AI. They're always brown. I mean, here's a case in point, this is hilarious. So where we live, we live outside a village, and we're kind of on one of the uh main routes for one of the RAF bases somewhere, flying enormous planes and jets and chinooks over. Periodically they come over hello. And um we had a village fate a couple of months back, and the d whoever was tasked with designing the poster obviously used AI. So there's like the manor house, a tray of cakes, some cows, some sort of women's institute, and a Chinook helicopter flying over the top of it all. I said, okay. Amazing. A designer would not do that. But if you type in the characteristics of where we live, AI is going to grab everything and go, I'll chuck in a Chinook helicopter. And so maybe musically it's it's a bit like that at the moment. It's a bit like you know, a custard shotgun, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03But But but should you know Elsie from the church hall committee be criticised for going, oh I've discovered how to use this AI to uh Elsie should go fuck herself, frankly, because it's a disgrace.
SPEAKER_00Play design or 200 quid like you should be doing, you know. Use your bloody women's institute funds or parish funds, whatever it is, and do it the right way. That's the that but that that that there's the problem, you know. In a nutshell, there's the problem.
SPEAKER_03My gosh, that's just so funny. That's fantastic.
SPEAKER_00I'm not I'm not paying a designer. And that feeds down to everybody, doesn't it? It's like I'm not paying a musician.
SPEAKER_03You know, we'll probably Well, I don't know if Elsie was ever gonna pay a designer. Maybe maybe she would maybe she was gonna get like, I don't know, someone in the vill like a kid in the village to like maybe you could make the poster, let's have competition. Maybe it was a kid in the village.
SPEAKER_00You know, and they they maybe he used AI. I think that's representative unfortunately of what AI does is that it does, you know, it takes work from people. You know, arguably we'll get to a point where a lot of people learn guitar online, obviously, and maybe it'll get to a point where they just have kind of avatars teaching guitar, you know. Chris version 2.2, whatever, you know. Yeah, I mean yeah, that Ret Show. I'd probably write my tabs a lot better. What's that sorry?
SPEAKER_03I'd probably write my transcribe my tabs a lot better.
SPEAKER_00AI tabs will be. But but that guy, Ret Show, you know, he got AI'd. Who's that? Oh, he's an American YouTube guy talking about games.
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay. Oh, okay, and then they've done a AI. Someone AI'd him.
SPEAKER_00It's like, oh man, okay. So you can't replicate the live experience. I guess that's the last bastion of all of it, really.
SPEAKER_03But it's obviously sort of happening. And and for for us, like surely, I don't know. There's uh uh shift from mag let's talk about magazines. There was you know, magazines where you'd get the work and you would transcribe the stuff and go in the magazine, you'd get paid. People with that would go, oh, I can go on YouTube. I can get I don't need to do a John Mayer style file because there's a video on the YouTube of John Mayer teaching. Exactly. Do it.
SPEAKER_00Uh you know, the the mag the mags probably went beyond the shelf. Like they probably had four years longer than they could have had. Ah, yeah. You know, yeah. It's a shame, you know. Obviously you loved mags, I loved mags, but you know, they're not but they're not there. You know, and and just that's sign of the time.
SPEAKER_03Interestingly, though I haven't seen an another representation of that in a digital form. It doesn't seem to have happened so much. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00It hasn't seemed to have shifted to like big blogs or like um there's a couple of guys in the States that do courses that sell well. I mean, they're really more focused on electric guitar things, you know. Um but yeah, that as a learning resource has kind of gone, you know. And I think it's a shame because the mags were, you know, things like GT were great because they gave people a monthly focus. You know, they'd get the magazine and go, I've got to learn these things. Now you've got to self-curate, I guess. So there's a bit more hidden. What do you mean? Well, you've got to you've got to go, what's my what's my learning pathway? You know, what should I be doing? Instead of having a magazine saying, okay, learn this next. I see. Now you go, what do what do I do this month? You know, do I learn some scales? Do I learn to learn how to play like Albert Lee or yeah, do I learn a John Mayer piece? I don't know. So I think a lot of people, you know, that there's a structure. Because remember, a lot of people don't have guitar lessons. I think many people don't have guitar lessons. They just kind of dip into things. And you always feel like saying to people, look, you'll do a lot better at this if you have someone teaching you. But I think the vast majority of people don't. They'll either go, I'll watch some guy on YouTube, you know, or I'll I'll buy the mag, and now the mag gone, it's Probably more YouTube time. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because I do uh I think my generation, or perhaps our gener with kind of similar bracket. Um we were probably the first people to learn to play in the style of and to be able to play licks like uh you know, a hundred in the style of two centrics licks.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But I did notice with younger people, uh maybe even this was sort of five years ago as well, where they were the first, it was the first time I was really noticing people being able to play something utterly insane, but not being able to play G C D. Yeah. And it's like, oh, it's because no one put you on a which is quite interesting because the resulting thing that comes out is like, well, you don't have to learn G C D, it's just that we sort of have traditionally done that, but you went and learned a polyphia song. Yeah, exactly. And now you're writing your own, oh okay, cool, man, that's groovy. Go with it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean that's that's yeah, that's where it is, exactly. You know, polyphia being a good example. You know, people can play that stuff. Um Yeah, I mean it depends whether you think you need those foundations, you know. Many people don't. You know, might do you think you need them? Or I don't uh in some contexts yes, and others no. I mean, if you're gonna start a band that sounds a bit like polyphia and it's working for you, then it's working.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Why bother to you?
SPEAKER_00Then no, you need those foundations. So it's it's kind of but then you know the thing is you kind of need that person that says, Well, I think you should think about doing this. Because it's a bit of bit of a chance factor otherwise, you know. I mean polyphia are a good example because everybody for a time wanted to sound like polyphia. You know, people play the Tim Henson stuff note for note. Um but yeah, you go, can you play anything else? I mean I was you know, the other thing is pr professionally you you realise that in truth the vast majority of the public don't want to hear polyphia and wouldn't know who they are. So if you're a guitar player and you pitch up at a situation where someone says, play me something and you play polyphia and they go, but can you play anything by the Beatles? And you go, no, then you actually look a bit foolish, unfortunately. See, g pe people don't don't really judge guitar players like guitar players judge guitar players. I think people typically judge guitar players kind of more like if they're a human jukebox. I think Tommy always worked so well because Tommy was able to play stuff that people knew with his unique spin on it. And that's why he exploded onto the scene because people go, Oh my god, it's you know Lady Madonna that played on a guitar. Whereas a lot of guitar players never did that stuff. And so they play and people go, I I don't know what it is. You know, there's a familiar, you know, everybody likes a familiarity.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's it's interesting, isn't it? I wonder if actually, and we're definitely moving a no, no, no, no, we're not. We're still talking about guitar. I w I wonder if actually people interact different slightly differently. I know obviously young people still have parties, but I didn't know. Yeah, no, it is different.
SPEAKER_00I mean I I don't I don't teach at a guitar school anymore, but when I did, there's a definite shift from people who started off you know back in 2008 loving Stevie Ray Vaughan and then John Mayer, and then that stuff disappeared and people didn't really have tastes. I don't mean taste, I mean tastes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00They might be really into polyphia, or but they might be into I don't know, some electronic thing or yeah, what I found was guitar players kind of disappeared from the equation, and people were far more into bands like Polyphia or or indie bands, you know, Bombay might but Bombay Bicycle Club and stuff like that, you know, which which are great, but the the the guitar hero thing of I want to play like Lucatha, I want to play like SLV, I want to play like Maya, did seem to shift.
SPEAKER_03Do you think that screwed the guitar mags a bit? Because that whole thing was guitar lesson.
SPEAKER_00To some extent. Yeah, to some extent.
SPEAKER_03I think Because that was kind of always the joke, wasn't it? It was like how many times can you put SLV or Derek? Yeah, yeah, it was always come on, man.
SPEAKER_00Joe Bonhommex was on the joke about how many times you put Bonnemaster on the cover, you know. I mean the the the lowest ever selling um copy of of guitar techniques was when they put Phil Collins from Def Leopard on the front cover. So it's like you know, you wouldn't necessarily see that coming. You'd you'd think should do all right. Put Hendrix on the cover, Clapton, SRB. So of course it's generational, of course. You know, you can't forget it's generational, you know, as people get older. Another generation comes through and they're like, you know, I don't like um Well a friend of mine, a friend of mine's got kids, and he had a his his son had a party. And um and and then one of the kids there, these guys are like 14 or 15. One of the kids was wearing um uh I think he was wearing a Led Zeppelin t-shirt, and and my friend just sort of said tongue in cheek, you know, my friend being the the dad. I think he said tongue in cheek, um, nice t-shirt. And um and and the kid goes, Oh, thanks. Have you heard Jimi Hendrix? He's really good. And my friend was like, Oh no, I'm I must check him out, you know. So but you know, it's that it's that it's that thing. It's all it's all shifted. So I don't know, I don't know. I mean, look, who did people listen to a hundred years ago? You know, it's very hard to say who do people listen to a hundred years ago. And so if you think about it, the the 60s, the 60s to a younger generation are more like the 30s, you and me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so yeah, yeah. And there's just so much more choice as well, in that sense of if you hear like I remember hearing Hendrix for the first time and it being like, oh my god, I've never really heard that sort of textural expanse. But I think now if you heard Hendrix, I think some of that almost outlandish sounds, I think you're hearing so many different textures in the plethora of different music that it's not so it's not so surprising, it's not so shocking.
SPEAKER_00No, I mean all those all those acts, yeah. Unfortunately, like Black Sabbath, you know, I love Black Sabbath, but people hearing Black Sabbath these days would be like, oh it's kind of soft in comparison to a sugar or something like that.
SPEAKER_03So to call it heavy metal. Yeah, I know it's just like absurd, it seems absurd. Yeah. I remember um uh a mutual friend of ours um uh playing me a band that he was in in the I think I think in the 60s and recording of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I was listening to it, I was like, wow, that's really great, man. That's really great, it's amazing to hear. And he said to me, What you gotta remember, Chris, is when we were playing this, we hadn't heard Hendrix, we hadn't heard Zeppelin, we haven't, and I was like, my god, that totally blows my mind because you've not heard those textures. Yeah, and for for yeah, for us, for younger people now, it's just such an different experience to have all of these sonic text.
SPEAKER_00It's very diluted, unfortunately, because you can, you know, I I love meeting people of that age who tell you about when they were 18, 17, and they went to you know, the Crawdad Club or whatever in Sussex, and there was Hendrix or Clapped and it's like, wow, that must be mind mind-blowing. Whereas these days it's all diluted, it's like, yeah, I heard those, you know, heard whatever band checked out on YouTube, it's on my Spotify playlist. It's all that wow factor. Maybe it's not there now. I don't know. But yeah, I mean, I've got uh I've got a friend who was you know sort of very much on the fringes of that scene, and he told me a story which made me laugh so much. He was he was in a cream covers band in must have been in the late 60s, and they got booked to play the Oxford University ball, and they went on after Cream. So Cream played, and then he had to go and play the entire repertoire back to the audience. They got virtually booed off, obviously. But it's it's very it's a very different scene these days, you know. It's it's yeah, it's all changed. It's all changed. I mean, you know, in some ways, guitar is back more than it's ever been before with the Nashville thing and the modern country thing. Guitar is on the radio again. Um so it's still very much alive. It's just the delivery and how you find it has changed. You know, it's it's it's it's all just different now, I guess.